Fairbanks Catholic Diocese asking for financial help
Published Wednesday, August 19, 2009
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Stumble It!FAIRBANKS — A special donation appeal is being made by Fairbanks Catholic Bishop Donald Kettler to Outside diocesan contributors to keep the Fairbanks Catholic missionary diocese afloat.
The request recently went out in a bulk mailing to 55,000 addresses of diocesan supporters around the country and beyond.
Kettler cited the reasons for the diocese’s fiscal crisis and his special appeal as stemming from legal costs of bankruptcy reorganization; rising fuel and maintenance costs; staff travel expenses to cover the sprawling diocese; and the national economic downturn which has decimated investment returns.
Although Kettler calls the letter a “special request” for donations, he said it is not unusual.
“We stay alive because of letters like this. This is how we provide for our missionary work. It’s through donors. That’s how we survive as a missionary diocese,” Kettler said.
During the last half dozen years, the diocese has incurred millions of dollars in attorney fees dealing with about 300 lawsuits alleging clerical sexual abuse of minors and in its ongoing reorganization after filing Chapter 11 bankruptcy in March 2008.
“The clock is always ticking on attorney fees,” diocesan chancellor Robert Hannon said. “I know we have incurred more than $2 million in fees to date and part has been paid from a loan and proceeds from the sale of property. Some of the fees won’t be paid until the reorganization concludes.”
Diocesan belt tightening began in May when employees took a 20 percent salary reduction and shortened work hours with the chancery closing its doors on Monday. Other unnecessary expenses were cut back, and employees in regional centers made separate cutbacks.
In his July letter, Kettler wrote, “I have had to simply eliminate some of my support staff and some of our diocesan programs.”
Cut were three full-time positions: senior accountant, maintenance assistant and engineering management associate, and a part-time Alaskan Shepherd clerk.
The librarian/archives clerk post was reduced to part time, and the remaining Alaskan Shepherd clerks’ work hours were reduced to 30 hours per week. The bishop, executive secretary, chancellor and receptionist have taken a 20 percent pay cut and the director of finance, a 25 percent pay cut.
At the beginning of July, the Office of Worship and the Office of Children and Family Life at the chancery were closed.
Those positions will now be served on a contract only basis, Hannon said.
However, the Tribunal Office will take over the key responsibilities of victim assistance coordination instituted earlier this decade after numerous clerical sexual abuse suits were levied against the diocese.
After declaring bankruptcy, the diocese spent a year working out a reorganization plan that was filed with the U.S. Federal Bankruptcy Court on April 2.
“We hope that all our efforts with reorganization will eventually lead to healing by everyone who has been hurt by this whole situation,” Kettler said.
Community Discussion
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Please help. Your donation will help fund the HEC (Home for Elderly Chickenhawks).
Maybe the they would have money if they didn't have to bail out so many pedophile priests.
I guess maybe I would have a little more compassion for their plight had not the Church tried to cover up the actions of the "pedophile priests" by continually transfering them to different areas (Alaska villages in particular) to cover up the problem rather than deal with it.
By refusing to acknowledge and make the offenders suffer the consequences, many more innocent victims became the targets of this sick sob's.
Sorry, no support here!
Like most businesses who can no longer make a profit they should close. That is what most churches are..a big non tax paying business.
Hilda,
That's crazy. I watched a documentary "Deliver us from Evil" where they did the exact same thing.
People are justifiably angry over the priests who were pedophiles and did harm. The church has acknowledged its shame and trying to make amends. Do we condemn even the good priests and all those who work in the spirit of Christ, for what the others did?
The truth of the Catholic Church has never changed. Jesus Christ established the Church and the priesthood so that the truth would be passed on. Humans fail, Christ prevails. Are you really willing to close down Catholic churches rather than to forgive and build anew?
Sheila I am sorry but the Catholic Church has changed. From what is accepted doctrine (ie, argument over the nature of Jesus) to what books are in the New Testament, the church has consistently taken new positions. In fact the idea that the Pope is infallible is a relatively new doctrine. The church is basically an organization that has built up immense temporal and political power that it is seeking to maintain. Now, if we want to talk about Jesus' teachings about living a good life, that is something different. Yes, I am willing to close down an organization that seeks to subject humans to immense poverty and suffering.
Shelia2009.....Yes, close them down. We act like this is a recent
action, but it has been going on all around the world for years.
The catholic church is rotten to its core. Tax all of them that
survive. I have no sympathy whatsoever for these mind control
child abusers.
They admitted what?
"Catholic Church admits complicity in case of paedophile priest"
"Church admits hush edict"
I don't think Jesus said anything about the pope, a whole city for him, or the word Catholic. He probably didn't say, "pray to my mother" either.
Catholics ? Did someone say Catholics ? Don't get me started.
Maybe they could sell their wine, to the cronics downtown.
When the downtown bums come for free chow they can donate to the church.
Articles like this attract anti-Catholics like a magnet. The only bigotry more common in America today is anti-semitism.
The Catholic Church is the only major organization in the country that is steadfast in its opposition to killing children in the womb, allowing depressed people to kill themselves, and numerous other outrages. If there is a Satan, would it not be likely that the Catholic Church would be the main organization targeted by evil? Tempt a few perverted priests and the whole organization is tainted and thus hindered in its work.
Really? The ONLY bigotry more common is anti-semitism? That's pretty rich.
A FEW priests? When did you stop counting?
Before the Catholic church starts talking about devils they had
better go look in a mirror.
I wonder how many of you critical folks have Mike Jackson CD's.
Wow. Wish I was a non-profit. I'll bet I could manage my money better.
Let's see an accounting of where the funds are going. Oh, that's right, we're not supposed to ask questions- just give. Sounds a lot like recent events involving certain financial and general corporate institutions...
Don't they have some gold plated swag in the back coffers they could sell?
Its pretty interesting how last winter we had articles in here about the church catering to the bumbs on the streets of Fairbanks and bigger plans for it. Now we have the article previouse to this article about the problems with violence on the streets of downtown Fairbanks perpetrated by said individuals. Thank you, the churchs efforts have made this such a better community thru their efforts.
bankruptsy can be wonderfull!! it happened in many dioceses for good reason. it will wake-up cardinals and bishops who are leading their flocks to hell!!! take a good hard look at europe. that's what we have to look forward to here in north america. the devil is very busy in our churches today--------------yes----------even the protestant churches!!! churches aren't going to save our souls. we must do it ourselves through much prayer
It amazes me how hateful just about every comment on this website is. First, we accept what the News-miner reports as if the News-miner is infallible, and then we jump on the bandwagon with our relatively anonymous two cents worth of attacks. Good-bye.
Facts are truth. There are plenty of other Churches who can do the "necessary" work.
This Fairbanks Church just needs to pray for itself and get out of the business of being on any Mission.
God pray for their simple souls.
WHY IN THE WORLD, would Non-Catholics financially support a Catholic foundation? Do Catholics support Baptists? No. Give me a break!
Time for a little perspective here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj...
According to this article http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/arti... , 6 out of every 10 public school students have been sexually abused or harassed by a school employee or teacher. Looking at the numbers, children stand a much higher chance (like 100 times the chance) of being abused at school than by a priest.
So let’s start applying all of the above comments to teachers. All teachers are bad, all teachers are perverts. Absurd? I thought so. All of the attention on not just abuses by the Church, but any allegation of abuse is meant to distract away from any good the Church has done over centuries. The Church has accepted responsibility for any actual abuses, and really, any allegations of abuse. They are paying dearly for it. So exactly what are you trying to accomplish with your anonymous attacks?
dukit: Huh? "Outside diocesan contributors" means contributers out of state, not out of the Church.
I will pray for all your negative souls. You people scare me. You could very easily incite riots. You sound like little Hitlers!
dukit,
One example: The local diocese financially supports Catholic Schools of Fairbanks, a school with 460 students. Students who whose families still pay property taxes that wind up paying for the local public schools. A school that, if it should close, would flood the local school district, which they wouldn't be able to handle all at once and would wind up costing the taxpayers even more. Simply by having that school open, saves millions.
bcmbwik, better turn off Rush. By the way the Catholic church was one of the biggest anti-Semitic organizations going. Forced conversions of Jews and the church's failure to speak out about the Holocaust are two examples that come to mind.
The bishop is sinning by using bankruptcy to get out of paying the full costs of child support.
All they would have to do is sell land they own at Peger and Airport Way.
I would call this consequences for their actions, as well as covering it up, and paying people off, putting their church at risk.
Tisk, tisk. You've run out of money and there are still issues to be resolved. If any other business had done this do you think it would still be open?
I know God in His goodness and mercy will forgive some of these remarks. As for me and myself, I could not sleep at night knowing I have made such as statement.
I pray God has equal mercy on your souls as I pray for His mercy on those predators who brought the Diocese to this condition.
If people who call themselves Christians cannot live their life as Christ lived His they have no right to that distinction. This is applicable to the sinner who hid behind the cloth and those who fail to forgive and move forward.
noone, I don't have the time to listen to talk radio. I work for a living.
ponderous, if you want your own religious school you should pay for it and you should pay taxes to support the public free option. This is not an excuse to give the catholic church a free ride after the church higher ups choose to cover up these terrible acts against children. It is your choice you know.
The Catholic church is a majority of good folks that happen to be just as upset by the goings on as you,..but abandoning our faith is not an option. We will work through this together, and your vitriol against the people of the Catholic church will only prove to strengthen our faith. All religions have their place, and the human race would not be able to survive without them.
Why should God forgive some of these remarks? They have been directed against an institution not good people. I have a great respect for some people who call themselves catholic. Dorothea Day, Phil,Daniel and Freda Berrigan, Fr. Roy Bourgeois, Thomas Merton to name just a few.
With all due respect, why should I give money to a church that protects pedophile priests and refuses to ordain women? There is evidence that the exclusion of women from roles of religious authority is an obstacle to the *integral human development of both men and women*. It is, therefore, a significant obstacle to integral (and sustainable) human development. If so, religious institutions such as the Roman Catholic Church, in which worship is always presided by a male, are part of the problem, and should consider the social harm they are doing and the absurdity of elevating old practices to new doctrines in order to perpetuate the male-only religious hierarchies. Sorry ... no women priests, no money.
desert_gal, read a bit more carefully. Your article says "between 6 percent and 10 percent", NOT "6 out of every 10". The difference between 6% and 60% is indeed only a 0, but a very important one! And your source is not exactly exceptionally credible at that, considering the number of stories that they've gotten wrong in the past.
Who is talking about an excuse? The bishop is simply asking for help by way of donation. Twenty dollars, ten. Donation of time, to volunteer, ... where is the harm in that? The disdain I hear in your words over the Catholic school is loud and clear, but I ask why such hatred? The school is open to everyone. EVERYONE. I have known non-Catholic, even non-Christian families who have put their families there because the quality of academics is unmatched.
Bishop Kettler deserves to be treated better than this. This wasn't his diocese when these terrible acts were committed, but he is trying his best to make amends to all who suffered AND trying to heal his own Catholic community and diocese. It is a heavy, heavy hand he has been delt.
Alaskamountainman: thanks for the link, I needed a good laugh to start the day.
No hatred, just common sense. I would refuse to lend my time, energy, monies, and faithfulness to a church who has decided that authority is the absolute virtue and that faithfulness to the sermon on the mount is a passing fancy.
There was a sign on a church that read , If you are looking for the perfect church , don't come here . If this church was perfect , we wouldn't be here . What would the United States be like with no Churches ? Would the moral values sink lower ?
Let Bishop Kettler go to the one place on earth that has unlimited funds and where the residents eat, drink, smoke and drive the best that money can buy. Let Kettler go to the Vatican and leave the Poor Faithful, who have for too long, suffered under Roman Catholic Greed and Perversons alone. In those vaults below St. Peters, is the wealth of the ages and by right, belongs to every Catholic Man, Woman and Child on Earth.
I hear the Catholic Church will be elevating Michael Jackson to sainthood.
J_Loury thank you for looking at the link. You are absolutely right, I was in a hurry when I looked at the article. But I did not misquote the part about abuses being perhaps 100x more prevalent in the public school system. May these numbers be off somewhat? Maybe, as they are extrapolating numbers from another report. The point I was feebly trying make is that there are abuses among other populations, public school being a big one. Where is the outrage? Are people demanding that we dismantle the public school system because of abuses? No. But the absolute hatred toward the Catholic Church that has developed over this is mind boggling. I only ask that people put this into perspective.
As victoriag suggests, the diocese fiscally stand on their own. If you sue the church you can't sue the Vatican, just the diocese. A nice way to keep all those assets in tact. That wealth not only belongs to every Catholic man, woman and child but to the millions of indigenous people who were forced to labor in the mines of the new world or were blessed by the Jesuits before they were loaded onto slave ships in Africa. The church has been accumulating for a long time.
The peacful mannerisms of Christ is first and formost the cornerstone of all Christian religions,..to say that any and all Christian organisations are totally 'Christlike' would be disigenuous,..however we cannot throw religions under the bus soley because of the actions of some. The few who engage in these type of horrendous activities (church leaders included) do not speak for all, and no matter if you reside in a 'godless' hollywood or a 'Holy' church, an overwelming majority know right from wrong and live their lives that way. We will survive and continue provide direction for those that choose to listen. For those that don't,..I feel there is a place in heaven for you as well,..the Catholic church is not but one path, choose one of your choosing and nurture it like it were a fetus.
Perhaps tugboat there isn't a heaven. Perhaps you have empathy for all humans and this leads you to treat them as you would treat your family members and yourself.
@willr: "The only bigotry more common in America today is anti-semitism." Baloney. Anti-atheism bigotry is far more common (for example, see http://www.mndaily.com/2009/02/22/survey...).
@bcmbwik: "I will pray for all your negative souls. You people scare me. You could very easily incite riots. You sound like little Hitlers!" Ironically, Hitler was Catholic.
@desert gal: "The point I was feebly trying make is that there are abuses among other populations, public school being a big one. Where is the outrage?" Public school officials did not systematically try to cover up abuses; Catholic officials did. Therein lies a huge difference.
To bad!
Ask Pope for money. I notice he seems to have plenty of golden garb.
Besides, it was the OFFICIAL Policy from Rome to shuffle the perverts to new hunting grounds. Not simply one, two or three mistakes but hundreds over many years.
The corruption had been going on for centuries! Because they were short of staff.
Religion is a commercial business.
I blame the cattlikkers for the overpopulation in Africa ...they came in with food and medicine to save lives...but they neglected to bring the birth control. A sin of omisssion?
My second post.
I said "WHY in the world would non-catholics" support a catholic dioceses.... They don't support any other organized religon. They don't bail out the local Baptist church, Prodestent or Lutheren or any other form. So why should we bail them out.?? In State or Out of State, makes no difference.
Yes they support Monroe School. 460 students, I know that. I've been to their fundraiser several times. I'm not Catholic and my kids don't attend that school so why would I attend the function????? Community Support. Community, not Religeous.
Charity starts at home, but no, I'm not called to empty my pocket book to support a BUSINESS that cannot take good financial care of itself. They are already in bankruptcy. Bankruptcy reorganization is a chance to REORGANIZE the business aspect so they can continue Business in good standing. Asking the general public for money is not creating good business practices. It is fostering a negative cycle that will not improve.
Jesus cleared the money lenders out of the house of God because they didn't belong there. Lesson to be learned here people.
I for one will not be the first one to throw a stone. Talk about looking in the mirror.......look what hate you have written in the blog....this is something to think about. I feel for the victims and what they had to endure. As for cover-ups please I am sure somewhere out the there are other churches who have hidden or mislead information......The reason we do not hear about them is they are being covered up! Think people.....actually Hilter was not Catholic he was another faith and his mother was Jewish.
Hitler's mother was Catholic. He was brought up as a Catholic although as an adult he rejected Catholicism. The real crime is that the Pope did not reject Hitler or the engineers of the third Reich. Mein Kampf wasn't even put on the list of indexed books. Hitler was shrewed and projected himself as a Christian to the German people. Anti-Semitism was already alive and well in Europe because the church taught that the Jews had killed Jesus and the church looked the other way when so called Christians were exterminated brutally.
check again sljones,,adolf was a baptised cattlikker.
correction....Anti-Semitism was already alive and well in Europe because the church taught that the Jews had killed Jesus and the church looked the other way when so called Christians exterminated Jews brutally.
ah the inqusition one of my favorite parts of church history.
Noone, I am sorry your history teacher was incorrect. Be that as it may, the hate that surrounds this blog really is sad.
Should we throw religion under the bus? I say yes, not only because of the actions of priests as child abusers but that they prey upon
the gullible and those who wont think for themselves. Down through history they have done more damage to humanity than any good they
may have done. And when they try to legislate their bigiotry they
need to find a bigger bus for them.
Why do you use the word hate? No one said they hated anyone.
Catholicsism is a religion, defined as "a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices."
Christianity, on the other hand, is an adoption. One doesn't necessarily include or preclude the other.
The terrible behavior of a few people is not justified in any way, nor is it excusable.
However, it is not now nor has it ever been a teaching of the Church that this behavior is morally acceptable. Men are subject to sin. Responses to close organizations where this behavior takes place is not very well considered because you would be closing, sadly just about every business and church and charity that has been in place for a lot shorter time than the Catholic Church. It is also known, that per capita these incidents are smaller in number than many other “organizations”.
The Church does not teach that the Pope is infallible. It holds the promise of Christ that the “gates of hell will not prevail against it” and whatever is held bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven. What the Church holds, is that in matters of faith and morals the Church is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit.
Asking Jesus’ mother to intercede for us is no more different than asking you to intercede for me, yet we recognize her special role in salvation history. After all it was his Mother that was the first Christian, the first to say “yes” to Christ and her cooperation with the Holy Spirit was like none others. In Scripture it was because of her intercession at the wedding feast of Cana the Jesus began his public ministry, and it was at the foot of the cross that Jesus said: “Behold your mother”.
Notwithstanding the difficulties that such data comparisons hold, the available information on clergy sexual misconduct shows that the problem is bigger among Protestant clergy. For example, the most cited survey of sexual problems among the Protestant clergy shows that 10 percent have been involved in sexual misconduct and "about two or three percent" are "pedophiles." With regard to the "pedophile" problem, the figure for the Catholic clergy, drawn from the most authoritative studies, ranges between .2 percent to 1.7 percent. Yet we hear precious little about these comparative statistics.
Like I said, Treat you faith like it were a fetus.
@sljones; "Noone, I am sorry your history teacher was incorrect." Based on what? The evidence, including photographs and quotes by Hitler, says you're wrong. Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic until he died. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitle...
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Cathol...
http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
http://skeptically.org/againstreligion/i...
@vinyardwrkr: "However, it is not now nor has it ever been a teaching of the Church that this behavior is morally acceptable." What a convenient dodge that lets you sweep the blood of history under the carpet. I'm thinking of the Crusades, the Inquisitions, and the collaboration with the Nazis, to name a few examples.
"The Church does not teach that the Pope is infallible." Then you had better inform the nice folks over at catholic.com that they have it wrong. They say that papal infallibility applies to any and all formal teachings by the pope on issues of faith and morality.
BigReb: Please. The problem is not just pedophilia, it's the systematic cover-up by the offenders' superiors within the Catholic Church. That is what has enabled these lawsuits against the Church to be successful.
dirtprof,
"Public school officials did not systematically try to cover up abuses"
Have you been writing fiction for a long time? Other than on the DNM threads?
dirtprof, Pius IX, made this offical doctrine in the 1860s. You are right, he is only infallible according to this doctrine when he speaks ex cathedra about faith and morals. Apparently the Pope had made some blunders before like the sun revolving around the earth so they added the ex cathedra caveat.
NOONE, you are so right. Most of the high Nazi Party Officials were from debout Roman Catholic Families. Hitler admitted that he patterned the Nazi Party after the Jesuits. Pope Pius XII was cozy with Hitler having been Papal Nunceo to Nazi Germany before becoming Pope. In 1933 the Vatican signed the concordia with Germany which gave the Nazis their first prestigious political footing on the world stage. It was the Vatican's objection to the Nazi's T-4 Program, which stopped the gassing of the elderly, crippled and mentally deficient; but no such objection was made in the case of the murderous gassing of 11 Million Concentration Camp Prisioners; 6 Million of those murdered were Jews; 1 Million of those 6 Million were Jewish Children. And who ever could have imagined that one day we would have as Supreme Pontiff, a man who has had the words, "Heil Hitler" on his lips. Saint Pius X is famous for the remark, "The smoke of satan has been allowed to enter the church". Well, Where There's Smoke, There's Fire; and I think satan has found a home in the Vatican City State.
To my fellow Catholics and for those with an open mind I post below some (hopefully) useful resources to correct the record from the above comment thread on the following: public school sexual abuse and Pius XII's actions in defense of the Jews.
Above, a link was posted documenting rampant sexual abuse in public schools. The societal yawn (especially from the media) that greeted this story imply a double standard evident from the indifference in the face of this systemic abuse when done in public schools compared to the 24/7 wall to wall condemnation spearheaded by the media when the Catholic Church is involved.
The reaction on this comment thread to the posted link was that: 1). it didn't involved authorities masking this abuse; 2). the source for the link itself was suspect.
Below I provide the AP stories reporting on this issue including (2nd link) the method by which the danger
posed by abusers is masked by the state school reporting itself. Please especially see the section heading called "Passing the trash"
in the first linked article.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21392345
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21393280/ns/...
As a Catholic I am in no way attempting to exonerate the abuse and how it was handled by the Catholic Church, but real concern for victims and zeal for justice requires equal outrage against perpetrators when abuse is committed by other institutions. If this is not happening than it might be appropriate to question the motives of those fixated on abuse by members of the Catholic Church while ignoring abuse occurring elsewhere.
(cont.)
(cont.)
As for Pius XII, many of the statements posted above provide no citations for their truth value. Please see this interview with Jewish historian Sir Martin Gilbert for a brief corrective:
http://www.insidethevatican.com/newsflas...
Here is an excerpt:
"
One of the things I have dealt with at some length is the question of the post-Christmas message [of Pope Pius XII] of December 1942. This has been criticized by historians for not mentioning Jews and not being outspoken enough, but in fact the people responsible for the Mass murder -- what is called the Reich Security main office in Berlin -- after the post- Christmas message, sent out a warning to all their representatives throughout Europe, warning that the Pope’s message was going to make it more difficult for him. The actual words of the message are: "In a manner never known before, the Pope has repudiated the National Socialists and the New European Order. Here [i.e., in his post-Christmas message] he is virtually accusing the German people of injustice to the Jews and makes himself a mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals." That’s rather strong. If the people who had to work in Catholic or Christian countries and deport Jews regarded the Pope’s Christmas message of December ’42 as impeding their work, then that must say something about his impact.
"
Also, please see the resources below, available on Amazon. The interview above mentions the book, "The Myth of Hitler's Pope" written by Jewish Rabbi David Dalin. This book rebuts the myth of Pius XII's complete cowardice and inaction in the face of the Nazi threat and documents his actions on behalf of the Jews. Link is here:
http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-...
Another great book setting the record straight on Pius XII is the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-War-Pope-Ro...
For Catholics who want to be armed with the facts about Pius XII when confronted with the myths please avail yourself of these resources.
As for the Diocese of Fairbanks, I pray for the victims and also for the good bishop, priests, deacons, religious and laity of the diocese. I have
made a monetary donation and if God leads you to it I hope that my fellow Catholics can help as well, always with prayers for the victims and the Catholic faithful in the diocese and with a monetary donation if possible.
Thanks and God bless!
What happened to those kids is unforgivable, but that is no reason to promote that revisionist history claptrap contained in the “collaboration with the Nazis” claims above. A Jewish guy taught me this long ago.
-------------------------------------------------
"No Pope in history has been thanked more heartily by Jews. Upon his death in 1958, several suggested in open letters that a Pope Pius XII forest of 860,000 trees be planted on the hills of Judea in order to fittingly honor the memory of the late Pontiff because the Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving the lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
-Pinchas E. Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews (1967).
----------------------------
"In relation to the insane behavior of the Nazis, from overlords to self-styled cogs like Eichmann, he [Pius XII] did everything humanly possible to save lives and alleviate suffering among the Jews; that a formal statement would have provoked the Nazis to brutal retaliation, and would substantially have thwarted further Catholic action on behalf of Jews."
-Dr. Joseph Lichten, a Polish Jew who served as a diplomat and later an official of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith in Rome. Written in his book A Question of Judgment (1963) (written in response to The Deputy play and available online in full).
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_X...
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. …The Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom."
-Albert Einstein in Time magazine (December 23, 1940)
--------------------------------------------------------
Pacelli was to become Pope Pius XII:
“Former Israeli diplomat and now Orthodox Jewish Rabbi Pinchas Lapide states that Pius XI "had good reason to make Pacelli the architect of his anti-Nazi policy. Of the forty-four speeches which the Nuncio Pacelli had made on German soil between 1917 and 1929, at least forty contained attacks on Nazism or condemnations of Hitler’s doctrines. . . . Pacelli, who never met the Führer, called it ‘neo-Paganism.’ "
http://www.catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius...
@smap99712: "Have you been writing fiction for a long time? Other than on the DNM threads?" Please provide evidence supporting your claim. Even after reading brasco's links, I still do not see an equivalence between official reactions in public schools and in the Catholic Dioceses. In the former, there are lots of examples where bad apples lost their teaching licenses in one state, then hid their past when they moved to another. That's a poor system, to be sure, but it's not the same as a bishop or cardinal moving a known abusive priest around. Moreover, one of the articles noted that "Private school teachers rarely turn up because many are not required to have a teaching license and, even when they have one, disciplinary actions are typically handled within the school." Note that Catholic parochial schools are private schools.
brasco: You provided a spirited defense of Pope Pius XII, but my posts focused on both the ties between Nazi Germany and the Catholic Church--that's not exactly the same thing. And, as one of the reviewers of the book you recommended wrote (http://www.amazon.com/review/R3RHAIG0U20...), the examples of some elements of the Church acting humanely toward Jews should be considered alongside the many examples of inhumane actions.
Wow, intollerance galore on these postings.
It is easy to attack others when you overlook your own failings.
I wonder where my letter went? I never received a donation request.
Brasco, thank you for your well-articulated and thought out response. Funny, the first thing I did was go online this morning and make a donation, I hope many others do the same.
I'm giving my money to the Bible Baptist Church instead. They have a much better sign.
Those who seek money from the Church, they are attacking Christ, the Head of the Church. As such, they are losing their souls. They want no help, no counselling, just money so they can be rich and spend it on materialistic things. They do not care how they hurt the Church and its members. They want revenge on the Church because of one person who victimized them. Because of 1 wrong, they seek to do 1,000 wrongs and destroy the Church. Indeed, they have lost their souls, not because of abuse, but because of greed.
LOL at TAC... When the money dries up, you close down, end of story.
crosstwo: Sometimes I post after I've been drinkin' too. So I can understand your confusion.
CROSSTWO, What Utter Foolishness!!! To receive remuneration and justice from those who were so evil in their perversities that only the Innocence of Our Lord's Children could sate them in their evil desires? Then to have those perversities concealed by the, so called, "Hierarchy"?
Do you seriously think Our Dear Jesus cares about wealth and money? Did Our Lord not overturn the money changers in the temple? Was HE not so poor that when HE slept it was in the bottom of a boat, or by the side of the road, or in a hay loft?
As one who has been on the receiving end, I know better than you what evil and perversities there are in the RCC. Our Crucified Lord weeps for HIS Lost Children who have been sexually brutalized and butchered in the most perverse, monstrous and painful ways (unimaginable).
I could write about the things that were done to me by an anointed pedophile priest; a man who was kicked out of two countries before he came to the US. I could write of these perversions but, they would not be print such things on this site. I CAN tell you that what was forced on me took place in the church and in the Divine Presence of the Blessed Sacrament. This is why people such as yourself are so Ignorant (And Who Keep Themselves So BLISSFULLY Ignorant) of the monstrous acts that were forced on the Children, Young People and Vulnerable Adults of our Church. You want to think it was nothing more than a kiss on the cheek, or a pat on the fanny. It was Hardcore, Painful, Miserable, Bloody, Sexual Butchery.
Because of the Courage of the Victims who have spoken out about the perverse sexual violations they've suffered, for the first time in the History of the Roman Catholic Church, HER Children Are Safer. We Don't EVER Want Another Child To Suffer As We've Suffered.
Ans so, CROSSTWO, WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO PROTECT CHILDREN?
"WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO PROTECT CHILDREN?"
Not sending them to a catholic church for starters.
I don't see why you people are so down on the Catholic Church. It's an incredibly forward thinking institution. Why, it wasn't even ten years ago that the Pope confirmed Galileo's theories were true. Think where science would still be today if that wise and infallible pope hadn't bravely led the way.
TAC.. Good point.
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Re perverts.
What I find interesting is: so few have gone to jail and my score shows only 1 administrator got demoted.
But yet, the church has paid out well over a billion dollars in civil claims.
To me, theology has little to do with personnel management policy of moving the perverts to new hunting grounds, while knowing what they were doing.
Anyone, notice: church management did NOT call the cops when a child was being abused.
----
Re: the NAZIs and the church.
Much of what was mentioned above was "talk".
In my opinion, what counts is documents!
TV news, etc is 99% gossip!
Any resemblance to reality is a mistake.
I am uncomfortable with the church and the Nazi rhetoric. I know that many Catholics hid Jewish families at great risk to themselves. I know that Catholics were arrested for their acts and probably went to concentration camps along with their Jewish brothers and sisters. I know that the freedom riders to the south to register voters and the struggle against Jim Crow were filled with people who were Catholic. I know that courageous Catholics oppose the death penalty. I admire and feel a kinship with the people of the Catholic Worker movement who strive to feed, cloth and provide dignity no matter who you are. The Archbishop who was killed in South America for speaking out against the injustices of his government was a saint. I am not comfortable with the hierarchical church which allies itself with political and national ambitions to retain power and control. If you contribute your Catholic faith as being a touchstone for acts of courage on behalf of all your brothers and sisters I have great respect for you and your faith.
Victoria2, I guess you never learned the meaning of forgiveness. If you cannot forgive, how do you expect the Father to forgive you.
Instead, you have chosen revenge! You have chosen to try and destroy the Church by harming and victimizing hundreds of innocent Catholics who have done NOTHING to you. You are blind by your hatred.
Instead of being at the receiving end, you should have asked for counselling and that such be paid by the Church.
Tell me, what is all that money going to do for you, a house, a fancy car, lots of booze, drugs, etc... You cannot take any of this to Heaven.
Forgiveness would have enriched your soul. Hatred damns you. As I said above, those who seek money, they are eternally lost.
As a victim myself, I surely did not walk in your steps. And I surely do not intend on corrupting the mind of others who have been abused, such action leading to the lost of their souls.
crosstwo said "Forgiveness would have enriched your soul. Hatred damns you. As I said above, those who seek money, they are eternally lost". Although i agree with the idea that reconciliation and forgiveness are the experiences that let us move on as human beings, it should also be noted that the hierarchy of the church did not acknowledge or attempt to mitigate this abuse until the courts started to talk about money. Perhaps the institutional church is what is eternally lost.
Oh yea other churches were worse than us, which I doubt, but is no
excuse. They too should be taken to the bar of justice, and its
time to tax the churches so they dont build up this large wealth at
the expense of the nation, then act like they are a law unto themselves.
Be sure to condemn the victims, because they want redress for what
was done to them......classic....they are only interested in money
and power and their own little alter boys to abuse. I dont see
how they could be allowed to go into bankruptcy to escape criminnal
actions. This relief valve for business and people are being abused
and the justice system is going along with it......shameful!!
Would the liberal organization, ACLU protect the adult in these cases if a priest were not involved. Just curious.
I too have been told of the "Graces" to be garnered by forgiving those who have truly hurt us. But it is a Cheap Grace when those asking pardon are not sincerely sorry; merely terribly, terribly sorry they got caught. Not being a supreme being myself, I don't know how to forgive that kind of evil. Thus, I will leave the the Judgement, the Penalty, and/or the Forgiveness to The ONE who will someday Judge us all.
Still here? uh-o looks like another Question Beliefs Thread.
Here Catholics....John 3:3 reads as follows: Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Oh-boy more confusion with those who "DON'T" read the Bible! :vicoriag- We(the saints) "ARE" the judges...
crosstwo: What you are basically arguing here is that those who were assaulted by the Catholic Church should now be asking that same church for forgiveness, rather than seeking justice for what they endured. That's absurd.
victoriag..I hear you. They have to restore your dignity and I don't see them doing that when people are forced into court to disclose their feelings of undeserved shame.
obed, here we go.... what bible are you reading for your enlightenment
1st Corinthians 6:
crosstwo: I'll put it in laymen terms. You are quite literally arguing that rape victims should turn to their rapist and ask forgiveness. That's not just absurd, it's sick.
Yes, the Nazis had a special relationship with the Catholic Church, as documented in many Nazi Concentration Camps:
Dachau had a special "priest block." Of the 2720 priests (among them 2579 Catholic) held in Dachau, 1034 did not survive the camp. The majority were Polish (1780), of whom 868 died in Dachau.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_conc...
And that was only one camp:
“To date, historians working for the Archdiocese of Berlin have documented the names of 711 Catholic clergy from Poland, Germany, and other European nations who were incarcerated in the Sachsenhausen camp.”
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.ph...
OBED9, Since you don't know what you're talking about, you are out of your element. You are talking about the Bible and I am talking about Sexually Victimized Children, Young People and Vulnerable Adults. Clergy Dependent Elitist Cathaholics such as yourself will never understand until the nightmare we Victims are living happens to someone you care about. Until then you, and many like you, will drive around in cars with Rosaries hanging from your rear view mirrors; Rosaries you never use for Prayer. You read your Bible but you might as well be blind because you garner nothing from it. You go to Mass and yet you feel nothing from that experience. You speak of being, "Born Again", but you mock the pain of the Victims. You are the one who is lost.
Forgive the pedophiles? Have you ever been dehumanized by such perverts? crosstwo, I say why don't you go out and donate your time and money to these sick individuals.
I know they are not all perverted, but damn it! They did their best to cover it all up, and caused to victimize many more individuals!
Did you ever stop to think that some of the chronic indebriates may be the exact victims to these perverts? that the younger generation of inebriates are descendants of such?
I'm not excusing their behaviors, but there is cause and effect to life situations. And the RCC's cover up to the pedophiles in their ministry has a deep and lasting effect to their victims. Many of whom are Alaska Natives forced to have gone from their villages to attend boarding schools at where many of the abuses occured. Not to mention in the villages said pedophiles were sent to.
Forgive these perverts? Not till they openly, publicly, steadfastly admit and apologize to many, many, many, many, many, MANY of their victims all over the world! I don't mean just a paltry apology, but to help counsel these individuals and offer finances to other intstitutions who are counseling and doing therapy to these lost souls. Goodness, who would ever go to them for therapy, all they'll preach about is forgiveness! Yeah right!!!
Some have come out survivors, but a lot are still lost and confused. Their offspring are still suffering as well. And until they have come to openly admit to their vicitmization and not hide in shame over it, they shall remain lost. Hence the catholic church come out and admit, once again, their fault in all this.
Asking for financial help. The very idea!!!
dirtprof:
I have only mentioned two of many concentration camps: Dachau and Sachsenhausen. There were a great many others.
You have referred to the ties between the Catholic Church and Nazi Germany. So, were you referring to that special relationship that was manifested in the concentration camps?
We will give an extra amount next month per the Bishops request. The Catholic Church has many charities they contribute to and also the Catholic School. I am a Catholic and am very devoted to my church. Our Bishop is a kind, honorable man and his congregation hold him in the highest regard. I hope Fairbanks knows how important this request is and will step up to the plate and help out an important factor in our town. Thanks everyone and have a great day!
speaking of lost, victoriag, what makes you think I am a catholic?!?
and as for "your" judgement upon me ....You have "NO" idea what has happened in "MY" life
AND yes if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven!!!!!
Matt 6:15
Could killing an unborn baby be concidered a form of molestation.
Main Entry: mo·lest
Pronunciation: \mə-ˈlest\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French molester, from Latin molestare, from molestus burdensome, annoying; akin to Latin moles mass
Date: 14th century
1 : to annoy, disturb, or persecute especially with hostile intent or injurious effect
2 : to make annoying sexual advances to; especially : to force physical and usually sexual contact on
— mo·les·ta·tion \ˌmō-ˌles-ˈtā-shən, ˌmä-, -ləs-\ noun
— mo·lest·er \mə-ˈles-tər\ noun
@wildsteelhead: "You have referred to the ties between the Catholic Church and Nazi Germany." For starters, there's Hitler's 1933 Concordat with the Catholic Church. And the pictures collected here (http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm) are fairly solid evidence that that relationship continued.
victoriag: Don't waste your breath. Obed9 has been out of his element since birth.
Hey tac we all know your ignorance and the "FACT" you are going to Hell ...so stay out of mine and I'll stay out of yours
Terrific NAZI Research Site, dirtprof. It will help me a great deal. I have been trying to find out about the priest that sexually victimized myself and over 200 other little girls during his 50 plus years in the priesthood. (His youngest Victims was 4 years old.) He claims he left his homeland, Austria, because he was Anti-NAZI; but he was such a coward, I find that hard to believe. After Austria, he went to South America and was there during the entire war. We know he was kicked out of Brazil, but we can't find out why; only that he was asked (told) to leave. From Brazil, he came to the States. We also know that there was a "Transit Camp" (Jews were held over for a while and then shipped off to various camps) in his home village in Austria.
IF there was such a place asa hell which I dont believe there is I
sure would meet all these bible thumping zealots in the front row
still saying if you dont believe like me your going to hell.
twain, I think you hit it on the head. We all have the responsibility here on earth for our own lives. As the old wobbly song goes," there is no pie in the sky when you die, that's no lie".
I keep hearing, "The Church this..." and "The Church that..." What is the Church? The Church is the people! When you criticize the Church and its actions, you are criticizing your actions and the actions of the people. Yet, it is not the people, in most cases, who have committed the abuses. It is a handful of priests. If you want to point the finger to someone, point it where it belongs. If Father "X" abused you, then say Father "X" abused you. Do not say that the Catholic Church abused you or the Catholic Church abused many. It was a handful of priests in each diocese, far less than is found in all the protestant Churches, and 10 times less than is found in the educational system. Yet, no one complains about the protestant ministers. No one complains about their teachers. How do you explain that? It is simple hatred against the Catholie Church and what it stands for, the truth, the way and the life, the one and only Church instituted on earth by Jesus Christ.
I wonder how many of the above complainers have had abortions or support abortions. They are murderers and yet they have the nerve to point the finger to others. It is no wonder they cannot forgive - because they know there is no forgiveness for their sin. Their guilt condemns them over and over.
I keep hearing, "The Church this..." and "The Church that..." What is the Church? The Church is the people! When you criticize the Church and its actions, you are criticizing your actions and the actions of the people. Yet, it is not the people, in most cases, who have committed the abuses. It is a handful of priests. If you want to point the finger to someone, point it where it belongs. If Father "X" abused you, then say Father "X" abused you. Do not say that the Catholic Church abused you or the Catholic Church abused many. It was a handful of priests in each diocese, far less than is found in all the protestant Churches, and 10 times less than is found in the educational system. Yet, no one complains about the protestant ministers. No one complains about their teachers. How do you explain that? It is simple hatred against the Catholie Church and what it stands for, the truth, the way and the life, the one and only Church instituted on earth by Jesus Christ.
I wonder how many of the above individuals have had abortions or support abortions. They are murderers and yet they have the nerve to point the finger to others. It is no wonder they cannot forgive - because they know there is no forgiveness for their sin. Their guilt condemns them over and over.
There is hell on earth, just ask the clergymen's victims, some of their survivors as well.
crosstwo, you seem eager to condemn a lot of people. Most negative postings here have been about the hierarchical institutional church. The claims of absoluteness about the nature of the church as being the only way is the stuff that Inquisitions, Auto de Fe, and violence against none believers is made of. You should read a little about Buddhism and realize that they have a whole moral system that depends upon treatment of one another and not necessarily about god, heaven, or hell. It is quit ethical. Confucianism is another system that promotes moral and ethical behavior without necessarily a god.
Cross2: Christ did not form the PHESUDO-Christian,unholy catholic church ! Satan did.....now go to your room and be an abomination to God by praying to dead people .. You know Peter,Paul,Mary that's right "DEAD" "IN THE GRAVE" can't move, can't answer prayer, can't make tears come out of a statue, yes the CATHOLIC CULT "IS AN ABOMINATION" to our Holy Lord
Pseudo
dirtprof:
Yea, go figure.
Oskar Schindler saved about 1,200 Jews he used in slave labor, and he becomes a hero with a movie made to chronicle his feat.
Pope Pius XII saved about 860,000 Jews some of which were used in slave labor, and he becomes the anti-hero labeled a Nazi collaborator.
Yea, go figure….
"What would the United States be like with no Churches ? Would the moral values sink lower ?"
I don't think so. Christians are good because they are threatened with hell, atheists in comparison are good because it's the right thing to do. Atheists are under represented in prisons - and they don't have any bishops or cardinals or whatever covering for them. Being godless is not the same as having no morals, you just reason them out yourself or learn from those around you rather than getting them dictated to you by a higher authority.
Amen, DrKaren.
Dr Karen.....you nailed it. We dont need all this holier than thou
attitude and churches to be GOOD people. Some of it comes from your
heart. Take a hard look at how they want to treat their fellow man
and not all this religious garbage they are spouting.
the highway to hell is paved with good people
dirtprof:
at 8/20/2009, 12:33 p.m. you said: “
“@wildsteelhead: "You have referred to the ties between the Catholic Church and Nazi Germany." For starters, there's Hitler's 1933 Concordat with the Catholic Church. And the pictures collected here (http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm) are fairly solid evidence that that relationship continued.”
------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, these assertions are worth a closer look to get at the truth.
Let’s put the document into the context of the time. The 1933 Reichskonkordat was signed three months after the 1933 Enabling Act, which was the second major step Hitler took to get the legal authority establishing his dictatorship. Three months later it becomes apparent that Hitler will have the power to persecute those in the Church, or to destroy it altogether. So, this is the context under which the document was signed.
The weak and vulnerable Catholic position is captured succinctly with this excerpt: “Pacelli [who was to become Pope Pius XII] told an English representative that the Holy See [Pope Pius XI] had only made the agreement to preserve the Catholic Church in Germany; he also expressed his aversion to anti-Semitism. Cardinal Faulhaber is reported to have said: ‘With the concordat we are hanged, without the concordat we are hanged, drawn and quartered.’”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonko...
You have implied that the Concordat document shows that there were cooperative ties between the Catholic Church and the Nazis. It seems to me that the more informative and important ties were the bound wrists of the Catholic clergy as they were being taken to the concentration camps mentioned above:
Dachau had a special "priest block." Of the 2720 priests (among them 2579 Catholic) held in Dachau, 1034 did not survive the camp. The majority were Polish (1780), of whom 868 died in Dachau.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_conc......
But that was only one camp, and there were countless others. Here is another:
“To date, historians working for the Archdiocese of Berlin have documented the names of 711 Catholic clergy from Poland, Germany, and other European nations who were incarcerated in the Sachsenhausen camp.”
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.ph......
And that is where the truth of the matter lies. The 1933 Reichsconcordat has got to be put into the context of the time. The truth is not captured by your oversimplified assertion that the Concordat is evidence of cooperative ties between the Catholics and the Nazis. A document of agreement between equals in power is possibly a display of cooperation. A document of agreement between unequals in power where one party has the power and intent to destroy the other is definitely not a display of cooperation. It is a display of dominance:
“With the concordat we are hanged, without the concordat we are hanged, drawn and quartered.”
http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/main.p...
dirtprof:
at 8/20/2009, 12:33 p.m. you said: “
“@wildsteelhead: "… And the pictures collected here (http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm) are fairly solid evidence that that relationship continued.”
---------------------------------
You have got to be kidding me.
The nature of the relationship you are referring to has been covered in my previous post: the Catholics were dominated by and persecuted by the Nazis. In spite of this the Catholics were able to save 860,000 Jews in defiance of the Nazis. Many Catholics died at Nazi hands as a result of this effort.
When staring down the barrel of a rifle being pointed at me, I might be cooperative too. You might even say that I have entered into a cooperative relationship with the person holding the gun. You might say that. But I definitely wouldn’t. It’s the nature of the relationship that we disagree on, both in my example and in the case of the relationship of the Catholic Church to Hitler.
---------------------------------------------
But let’s get to your next point about the evidence presented by the photos. You imply the photos are evidence that the Catholic Church supported Hitler and the Nazis.
Let’s take a closer look at your assertion about the evidence that the pictures present. As with your previous statement let’s put the pictures into the context of the time they were taken. What are you telling me here? That you are not aware of the work of Joseph Goebbels?
Joseph Goebbels was second in command in the Nazi party. That is why he replaced Hitler as chancellor of Germany once Hitler departed from the scene. He was one of Hitler’s closest advisors. What was his official position? It was arguable one of the most important. He was the Reich Minister of Propaganda from 1933 to 1945.
So how did the Ministry of Propaganda operate?
(continued)
So what is the environment in which these pictures were taken? How did the Ministry of Propaganda operate?
“The hegemonic ambitions of the Propaganda Ministry were shown by the divisions which Goebbels soon established: press, radio, film, theater, music, literature, and publishing. In each of these, a Reichskammer (Reich Chamber) was established, co-opting leading figures from the field (usually not known Nazis) to head each Chamber, and requiring them to supervise the purge of Jews….”
“Control of the arts and media was not just a matter of personnel. Soon the content of every newspaper, book, novel, play, film, broadcast and concert, from the level of nationally-known publishers and orchestras to local newspapers and village choirs, was subject to supervision by the Propaganda Ministry…. No author could publish, no painter could exhibit, no singer could broadcast, no critic could criticize, unless they were a member of the appropriate Reich Chamber, and membership was conditional on good behavior. Goebbels could bribe as well as threaten: he secured a large budget for his Ministry, with which he was able to offer generous salaries and subsidies to those in the arts who co-operated with him. These were inducements which most artists, theaters and orchestras, after their struggles to survive during the Depression, found hard to refuse.”
In short, all media was tightly controlled propaganda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goeb...
(continued)
Joseph Goebbels was the architect of a great deal of deception using this propaganda. He used the Theresienstadt concentration camp to dupe the Red Cross into believing that all Jewish inmates of concentration camps were well treated. The Nazis even made a film about the camp to support this assertion. If we were to see this film today, it would seem like proof that Jewish concentration camp inmates were being treated well. But like the pictures presented on this site you linked us to, this would simply be falling for the same propaganda that the Red Cross did so many years ago. The pictures on the page you linked to do not support your position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienst...
(continued)
What do static pictures like those presented on your linked site mean?
Lets’ look at a current affair to get a different perspective. Recently Bill Clinton was photographed with the dictator of North Korea. Do these photographs prove that Bill Clinton supports this government or individual? No, of course not. It proves that Clinton met with this person. In this case, he was retrieving some “journalists” who were being detained by the North Koreans. Period.
These pictures you have linked to mean nothing to anyone even remotely aware of the Nazi propaganda machine. And they certainly do not even come close to offering the support for your claim that cooperative ties between the Catholics and the Nazis are captured in these images.
dirtprof:
These latest comments of mine are a response to your assertion that “"… And the pictures collected here (http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm) are fairly solid evidence that that relationship continued.”
Not everyone reading this thread would have recognized the name Joseph Goebbels, but almost everyone should recognize one of his most famous propaganda techniques that he perfected, the “Big Lie:”
This “…technique of propaganda, which is based on the principle that a lie, if audacious enough and repeated enough times, will be believed by the masses.”
It is amazing to me that even after more than 60 years and the Nuremberg trials, these propaganda pictures he helped to create are still convincing people like you about a cooperative relationship between Hitler and the Catholic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goeb...
why don't you just write a book wildsteelhead
DrKaren for Pope!
Just now I wrote the words:
“The nature of the relationship has been covered in my previous post: the Catholics were dominated by and persecuted by the Nazis. In spite of this the Catholics were able to save 860,000 Jews in defiance of the Nazis. Many Catholics died at Nazi hands as a result of this effort.”
And as I wrote this just now it became apparent to me why I have decided to take issue with your assertions. The truth about those Catholics that died saving the Jews should not be buried in a feeble attempt to advance the atheist agenda, as some here seem to be doing. This is a story of people under extreme duress risking the lives of themselves, their wives and husbands, their children and even grandchildren to save other people doomed to die at the hands of the Nazis. Many Catholics lost their lives in the effort, and many more repeated this act of defiance even after seeing other Catholics killed for their actions.
I’ll be damned if I am going to allow armchair heroes to diminish those noble acts that capture the best of the human spirit.
You cannot bury the truth without challenge.
Jonny_Hypocrite:
Why should people have to pay to buy a book, when I can bore them with the facts here for free?
TAC:
She might as well be pope of the atheists, because the courts have already ruled that atheism is a religion:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTI...
Interesting, legal opinion.
No religion equals religion.
Ah, yes lawyers at their best.
--------
This story in much more interesting.. about black racist Obamaits attacking Glen Beck.
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http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.vie...
obed9 8/21/2009, 8:38 a.m.
the highway to hell is paved with good people
Did you come up with that on your own. I hope so. It would be scary to have more people out there that are that ignorant. The funny thing is that those good people are probably not worried about hell. they're probably worried about helping people instead of yelling at them from a street corner and sending them to button-clicking websites.
The ignorance is yours firegy02 if you think you can earn salvation
Gal3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Too many well meaning Christians try to attain higher levels of Spirituality by doing, doing, doing instead of just abiding in the finish work of Christ...
John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
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