Community Perspective
Natural gas clears the air
Borough must stay involved
Published Sunday, October 18, 2009
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Stumble It!I was glad to see the voters decide to keep the fine particulate issue in-house. It was the right decision. In my opinion it was the only way keep our concerns from falling on deaf ears.
The News-Miner noted that what happens here would have an effect statewide. Possibly so, and that’s more reason for us to have the biggest voice at the table.
Southcentral Alaska has a history of aggressively pilfering our commerce. One only to need look up at jet planes flying overhead loaded with cargo and passengers from Anchorage to the North Slope. Or be aware of the flights we cannot see heading northwestward out of Anchorage to western Alaska. Then there are our many international flights that left our clear Interior skies for the longer routing through Anchorage — in spite of inferior weather, turbulent approaches and the crowded skies of the Anchorage bowl. We only need to recall the many corporate headquarters that have moved from here to Anchorage to realize what we have already lost. Our neighbors to the south still covet our university on the hill — the University of Alaska’s flagship. Or how about sending our mail to Anchorage before it can be delivered next door?
Oh yes, our chamber of commerce neighbors to the south would love to see our community in more hot water with the feds. And they have the votes to make it so. So we must have not only the most authoritative voice at the table but also the most knowledgeable, one with some common sense and, well, you know what it takes — someone with the grit to stand up for us. November’s election will determine that.
There’s been a lot of online commentary lately, bad-mouthing the scientists on the hill and our borough air quality specialists. What the bloggers do not know is that in the mid-1970s when our carbon monoxide levels exceeded those in Los Angeles, people at the University of Alaska identified the “cold start” phenomenon. That explained why many northern cities were plagued with carbon monoxide, and it was our university’s findings that initiated the auto makers worldwide to find a technical solution. They did, and that is the main reason our, and everyone else’s, carbon monoxide problem went away.
What the maligning bloggers are telling us differs from what the facts tell us. The guys and gals on the hill and the borough specialists have been quietly working this issue for some time now. They have already substantially reduced the size of the Environmental Protection Agency’s non-attainment area and are building a good case to reduce it even further. There are many more monitors and samplings taking place — not just one on Two Street as some have declared.
Changing from No. 2 to No. 1 fuel oil obviously will help reduce particulate matter smaller than 2.5 microns in the air, but it will not solve the problem, since wood smoke causes over 40 percent of PM2.5 emissions. But even that must be considered in context of what really happened. Many households converted to wood heat late last fall when the price of fuel oil went ballistic and much of the available wood was green. Green wood not only gives off more than twice as much PM2.5 as dry wood but also produces only half as much heat energy. I expect much better results will be realized this year when wood burners use drier wood. However, the real solution — one that will do away with the PM2.5 problem and still accommodate community growth — is Alaska natural gas. The mayoral campaign flushed out the fact that gas in two years is possible. So that is where we need to focus our attention — and watch our backs.
Already, there is a proposal to haul propane by truck from the North Slope to compete with project proposed by Fairbanks Natural Gas and the Alaska Gasline Port Authority, the organization formed by the Fairbanks North Star Borough, the City of Valdez and the North Slope Borough. The propane proponents, too, are vying for Golden Valley Electric Association’s business. If successful, it would scuttle our chances for low-cost gas to compete with Southcentral’s gas. And we will lose our only key to solve our PM2.5 problem.
Getting gas here within two years can happen, but it’s in the hands of our next mayor to keep it on track. And GVEA members (all of us) can be a big help. We just need to insist that GVEA follow through with its memorandum of agreement with our port authority.
It’s our future — let us not hand the reins to those who might not care as much as we.
Bob Thomas of Fairbanks is a professional engineer.
Community Discussion
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Sigh. Your anti- propane, anti ANGDA arguments have zero basis in fact. ANGDA was working on propane long before any other competing project. Second, why would/should GVEA not employ market forces to determine which fuel to buy? And why would low cost propane be a bad thing? Far more homeowners in Fairbanks are not on a gas grid than are. Basic logic would suggest that if air quality is an issue that the more people who switch to a clean burning, affordable fuel the better our air quality will be. Since 98% of homeowners here are not on a gas grid the better solution is propane since it does not require a gas distribution system.
The legislature declined to provide support to either FNG or ANGDA for the different projects. That should be the focus of concern. A relatively small, one time, amount of money (100 to 200 million) to either project early this year would have resulted in the Interior and rural Alaska being only about a year away from having clean, affordable fuel as a stop gap measure.
Meanwhile, for this winter, the state should be providing rebates to homeowners who heat with, relatively clean, number 1 fuel oil. No infrastructure has to be built to do this. By the state failing to ensure we have the basic infrastructure to provide clean, affordable energy our air quality has been trashed. That is a direct violation of Article VII of the Alaska Constitution that requires the state to promote and protect public health. Breathing air befouled by dirty heating sources is 100% preventable. It only takes competent leadership.
YAAAY !!! BOB THOMAS !!!
Right now the hottest thing going is the N-slope NGL extraction plant ANGDA/AGPA is working on...
http://www.angda.state.ak.us/Propane%20D...
First we truck propane/ethane to Fairbanks..
and as soon as the first trucks finally begin to bring some half-century delayed relief, then we switch focus to building the quickest little pipeline that reduces the trucking load on the haulroad --->
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
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http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
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Then we continue the buildout of that first 12mile section of propane-polypipe gasline...
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
Once we get the NGL's flowing to Railbelt at 10,000bpd, then we can build a polyolefin plant in Fairbanks, and another in Tyonek.
Alaska could then become an exporter of polypipe to lower48 where there is an unsatisfied $50billion demand for this product to repair America's crumbling infrastructure.
http://www.angda.state.ak.us/ANGDA%20Boa...
When Alaska becomes a polypipe producer, then we can develop a 5bcfd Cryogenic LNG gasline that ships -270F methane from Deadhorse to Valdez.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=of...
This CRYOGENIC gasline can be made from 90% HDPE / 2% coppernickel
..imagine 5 billion cube feet per day of methane flowing through Fairbanks !! In a 24" plastic pipe !!
This cryogenic pipeline can be tunneled underground using modern Trenchless Technology. Permafrost soils are great for tunneling through.
GVEA watch how CIRI goes on it's development of an underground coal to gas plant. If they can be successful with this, there will be another door opening for affordable energy in the interior. Do it right at the source of the coal and not have to pay transportation cost. Alaska is rich with coal and if CIRI plant works, they may have provided Alaska with a solution others have failed to do. For all those who will scream coal is dirty, learn the facts on how this underground plant will work before you start screaming.
Transportation cost is the killer, whether you haul it or put it into a pipeline. If you transport electricity by wires then the routes along the way already have a chance for development. Why bother with pipelines, when you can use electrical wire transportation of energy. Hopefully CIRI will be a winner.
The majority of the lawmakers in the capital are not from the Interior, so we can't expect them to assist us, as proven by not funding FNG's request last session. The cost of transportation of energy is the "killer factor" for the Interior. Unless we can develop local power sources, there will never be "reasonably cost" energy in the Interior,
the days of cheap energy never were or will be! As in the past history of Fairbanks, energy will be expensive. So we must simply accept the "facts" as they are & will be, and plan our lives accordingly. Small homes which we can afford to heat, a simple lifestyle and forget becoming the new Anchorage of the North. Adjust your thinking or move
out to where you can live as you think life should be like.
sisu-
I beg to differ. Sort of. I pray we will never be like Anchorage, but we can, I believe see energy become more affordable using ALL means necessary to include clean coal, NG, Propane etc. The demand for energy here is high, the supply is practically endless, but the competition is low. All we need to have happen is for more competition to enter the market whether it is through trucks hauling southbound NG/propane, or Clean coal in Healy or even a Susitna dam. The bottom line is that OIL will not last and we are already dangerously close to seeing Alyeska shut down TAPS. If that were to happen today, imagine the end result. Doesn't make sense for someone (you, me, the state...whomever) to work toward filling the gap? We have all become so dependent on oil and PFD checks when literally there is so much more out there for Alaskans to devlop. I for one want to be at the front of the line, pushing the envelope.
Why are we talking propane at all, for Fairbanks? I'm already on NG and have enough propane for my Grill.
I'm wondering what the storage medium would be at the drop-off point?
What are the chemical properties of Propane? and how far south of -20 will it work? Butane would work at lower temp's, but not sure how much lower? I also know I would be tring to bury a tank for #1 heating Oil before switching to Propane. (I just have this thing about a huge tank setting above ground, in my yard, that has the potential to blow my house up, I guess). But then I would be in luck if they can somehow convert the propane in Fairbanks for distribution thru there piping system! Yea - maybe I will win the PowerBall too!!
I wish we had more bloggers from Rural and Remote Alaska expressing their views on the how to get propane or any other low cost alternatives to our villages. We are hoping that ANGDA will be successful in bridging the gap between now and the time we actually see a large pipe going from the North Slope to Valdez.
I am sure all of you know what our energy costs are in our villages. If you don't, gasoline is $5.56 a gallon and heating oil is $4.64 a gallon in Dillingham. More remote villages pay much more.
We need help as much as Fairbanks does. We see crude oil prices rising again and it is clear that they will rise further once the global economy cranks up again. IF that happens, then our fuels will rise as well and place more financial stress on already stressed out villages.
ANGDA seems to have the most effective near term plan to get energy relief to Fairbanks and our villages.
Andora, please expound on this point as to why you feel this way.
"ANGDA seems to have the most effective near term plan to get energy relief to Fairbanks and our villages."
Until this gets fingered out leave my woodstove alone.
What the maligning bloggers are telling us differs from what the facts tell us. The guys and gals on the hill and the borough specialists have been quietly working this issue for some time now.
__________________________
Bob - when you say "quietly" do you mean they are not sharing information with the public? Or are they "quietly" trying to take control of the PM2.5 away from the public?
If we are relying on "the guys and gals on the hill and the bourough specialists" to solve this problem, we are in DEEP trouble.
andora-
For propane and fiberoptics in Dillingham study this link carefully...
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
Contact Crowley and DeltaWestern for info on their plans to get ISO-tanks on barges for coastal delivery...
http://quantumtanks.com/Quantum%20Tanks%...
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http://img.en.china.cn/0/0,0,155,942,640...
FreeDarf...err-
"Why bother with pipelines, when you can use electrical wire transportation of energy."
____________
The energy distribution efficiency of an electricity-grid is at best 50% compared to gas in a pipeline distribution network.
..just for starters on this subject,
Can you define AC-Hystersis for me ???
Sometimes you gotta take the smartest guys in the room [ENRON,et al] and dunk them in the water trough until their feet quit kicking and the bubbles stop.
Yeah, I used to be a wire fuzzer for Local 1547..
as you can tell I've been fried a few times..
Electricity is great stuff, but you can't try to fool everybody into thinking it can do everything a gaspipe can do.
If we convert all Alaska's gas resources into electric production then tried to distribute it to the 13million square miles of Alaska Territory 90% of Alaska's 1000tcf of gas will be lost to the atmosphere as waste heat before it get's to your house.
My skool-teecher used to tell me...
"Study Up, or Shut Up !!"
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page
Lets pretend for the sake of argument that we build DT's little poly pipe. Start in January and have it here by next October. Then what? There's no distribution network. No company in place to meter or sell the product. No maintainance staff to maintain the non-existant distribution network. Anybody have any idea what it would cost to tear up ALL our streets to run gas lines? Propane seems to make more sense. Buy a tank, modify your existing oil burner and have it delivered by truck. But would it be cheaper than fuel oil?
"What the maligning bloggers are telling us differs from what the facts tell us." So there you have it folks, if you disagree with the IM program for houses you are a stupid maligning blogger. Well, I am a stupid, maligning blogger.
Luke will push to have a large borough department for enforcing EPA regulations. To pay for this program people will register their heating systems and have them inspected once a year. The fee for this inspection will be $90 bucks plus an additional $60 for the registration. If you are out of limits you will have 30 days to fix the problem or be fined. Just think IM program for houses, and businesses.
And one more thing Bob Thomas, what is your cut in all of this?
robir8 ---
"Lets pretend for the sake of argument that we build DT's little poly pipe. "
______________________________
Dang, you missed it robir8...
read it again...
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
DT's first little polypipe is for pipelining PROPANE-C3H8 and ETHANE-C2H6 from Deadhorse to FBX-Railbelt....
and my primary purpose for this little polypipe is to add 2000 good paying jobs to Fairbanks developing a polyolefin-polypellet industry.
Even though the BTU's coming out of this First-of-Four-or-More poly-gaslines will be cheaper than Naphtha, we shouldn't waste this precious stuff on living the fat-easy energy-hog life in Squarebanks.
Making our own polypipe from Alaska-NGL's will get all of us more small-hydropower, geothermal, clean-coal, freshwater, vacuum-sewers, and supercritical-CO2 heavy-oil recovery too.
One piece of what DT and Free Darfur talk about has me interested. That is that they both provide competition to the oil companies and would in theory reduce energy costs for us all. Also, DT talks about the possibility of becoming a polypie producer here in the interior. That would provide jobs and income for the state. We can be innovative here. Our harsh climate demands we have to be. There is not a reason to stop us from doing everything we can to help promote these ideas. Heck, tell me that my PFD money is going to go for the next 10 years to capital for projects like these and Susutina Dam and I bet you would see many Alaskans would go for it.
Modern Trenchless Technology will prevent us from needing to tear up all of our streets to install more modern underground utilities when we finally get around to training 2000 local excavation engineers on how to use the new equipment.
http://www.google.com/webhp?sa=N&hl=...
I'll work to get my legislators on side to help promote a worthwhile project to help Fairbanks. Absolutely, Alaska1, DT and Free Darfur. We can also make jet fuel out of our natural gas.
There was a story about a flight from London to Qatar last week. Half of the jet fuel was made from natural gas. Certainly our refineries could be retrofitted to do the same. We could also have a fleet of natural gas stations to fuel vehicles like they do in Utah. Save some big bucks for consumers too!
Attract some industry here to produce fertilizer like Agrium. We know it can be done!
I think that Put_Alaska_First has the right idea, about using propane rather than tearing up the streets to build an infrastructure for natural gas. But I would like to point out something that maybe some of you did not notice. Last year when gas prices went sky high, so did propane, and even the cost of a cord of wood went up pretty steeply.
That is because these are substitutes for oil/gasoline. So, even if we bring natural gas or propane to fairbanks more efficiently, I don't think we're going to see a significant drop in prices for any energy source.
Anyway, the idea of providing a subsidy for those who use #1 fuel oil is a good idea. It can be quickly implemented and may cause our air to clean up just enough to allow us to use our woodstoves too.
I've built a lot of woodstoves in my day...
if you don't line them with firebrick or other refractory they smoke like hell.
Don't over feed the fire before the stove is hot, build the fire slowly/carefully.. or use a propane weedburner to jump start it.
Just don't get stupid with the propane..
propane and booze do not mix any better than DUI.
Fairbanks needs more wood pellet mills, they can be bought in all sizes from 5hp to 5000hp mills.. for cheaper than you think.
AuroraEnergy should think about building a coal-gas-turbine that sucks it's make-up air from the smoggy streets of Fairbanks and ejects the exhaust through an inflatable fabric tunnel built on a lightweight walkway-bridge south across the Tanana River 20 miles downwind. 99% heat recovery and 99% pollution reduction can be achieved with this. Using a double shell fabric wall and differential pressure blowers the 60F-temps walkway can be used without asphyxiation.
Yeah, you can efficiently run a turbine burning coalwater as a fuel.
Am I the only one who was taken aback by the headline? "Natural gas clears the air."
Has this man never been inside a crowded bar late on a Saturday night?
Distant Thunder,
Why don't you work up a proposal and talk to the Chamber of Commerce, State of Alaska, University board of Regents and some investor groups and have a go at it? Start up a new business hon, put your money where your poly-urethane pipes are! I'll go work for ya.
Isanova.. stay tuned, me thinks things are just getting interesting... finally!
Isanova---
I'm no smarter than a box of rocks..
but I can play a pretty keen tune from my polypipe kazoo..
and I know how to google..
and I can speed read pretty fast for being legally blind for most of the past 20years.
My eyesight is terrible..
My outlook is improving..
My Vision is Excellent..
becuz I learned to adapt to Optical Rectalitis
What natural gas, what propane, what LNG? Get realistic, nothing is going to happen in two years or ten years or perhaps twenty years. Not
enough of the people needed to make any of this happen can or will get together, becouse they're too interested in their our "piece of the pie", not willing to share even the smallest part with any one else. Forty years has gone bye and yet nothing has happened, it's always ten years away! Just when is this insanity going to end?
Sisu- Just when is this insanity going to end? TODAY! eignning with me, and you , DT, FreDarfur and whomever else wants to. 1 person CAN change things. You just have to get involved, stay involved and not let anyone tell you CANT do something.
With all due respect to all the blogs – here are my perspectives: Re – ANGDA and propane. While propane does not flow at low temperatures (we used a light bulb to keep it going here when I was a kid) – so it can be used. However a safe and reliable preheating system needs to be developed prior to widespread use in bush communities. It ought to be being developed now.
Fairbanks Gas has installed approximately 70 miles of distribution lines in Fairbanks and North Pole if you live in town, you’re probably not too far away – they’ve been expanding for the past few years and no one has really noticed. (lines are pushed under roads). We have two years to expand the existing distribution system and connect up.
If anyone wants to complain about dug up streets – I wish they would question MUS – (oops Golden Heart) why they can not come up with a system to shut someone’s water off without digging up the streets (in the middle of the winter) – it happens when someone has to choose between staying warm or having water.
We must choose between ANGDA and FNG/Port Authority’s efforts – both need GVEA’s business. ANGDA’s stated objective is to truck propane to Fairbanks and give GVEA a good deal for their plant in NP. We will save a bit on our electric bill but forego natural gas for other energy uses. FNG/Port Authority plan will do the same for GVEA and serve other energy uses as well. So which will it be? And by the way FNG’s proposal produces propane as well – enough to serve all outlying areas and the bush too. ANGDA’s real objective is to kill FNG/Port Authority’s proposal by buying off GVEA. If that were not so, the two entities would be working together - natural gas for Fairbanks and propane for the bush and outlying areas. Ask them why not?
Neither plan affects the viability of any future pipeline.
As far as what I get out of it – with my cut and a dollar I can probably buy a cup of coffee. I will get the same as anyone else – lower energy cost. Most of all, I’ll get some personal satisfaction, I’ve chosen to live and work here since 1953 when my folks moved here from Valdez. Fairbanks is my home and my concern.
Does anyone know who sits on the board of the Port Authority?
Bob Thomas/DT- Remember guys there is already gas to Atigun, a small line to be sure but they are not using turbines to power their (TAPS) pumps anymore. There is a plant in Prudhoe (CGF) that can and does manufacture propane, perhaps one just needs to purchase it instead of getting a new plant built. Or purchase the States royalty share. Might be a simple thing to build a loading station for trucks, hell it might already exist.
(This comment was removed by the Newsminer.com staff. Please see our User Agreement for further information.)
BEING TOO COLD IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR PROPANE...
ANGDA already reminded me in an email last week that I don't have to keep reminding them about how to formulate ArcticMix propane.
ArcticMix is ~ 90%propane and 10% ethane ~
it flows nicely down to -90F,
and it works great for vehicle fuel.
_________________
"Remember guys there is already gas to Atigun"= robir8
This is the first time somebody in the Noseminer has some positive news about the 10"/8" fuelgasline that runs 150miles from Deadhorse to PS4-Galbraith.
I hear plenty of mixed propaganda about this little pipe.
It was designed to run raw field gas at 1200psi.
As best I can tell without driving up there myself, the Fuelgasline is mostly idled now and costs more to maintain than Alyeska is getting use out of it.
It sure would be nice to buy some scheduled time on that pipe.
I'm sure we can easily divert a stream of raw-frac "dirty" propane/ethane into that pipe, and begin trucking it from there.
If we use propane-trucks that have the Cummins NatGas engines the trucks would be capable of burning raw sour wet field gas for fuel if necessary..
and they will burn 30cent propane beautifully..
so the cost of trucking fuel is neglible..
..watch the insurance companies gobble up that savings margin!!
Anyone have any idea on what insurance would be on a bobtail carrying a load of propane or NG? Surely Bartos and crew have that cost estimate already.
Hell DT, I may just have to grab be a bobtail. I always have loved kittens :)
Power of the O - For sure Nuff said, that is why my vote for mayor goes to Wilson.
Bob Thomas- I second what DT is telling us about arctic propane. The 90/10 mixture of C3H8 (propane) to C2H6 (ethane) results in a gas that does not liquify until about -90 F.
Cold temperatures are not an issue for arctic propane. So all of your arguments as to why propane does not work are invalid. It is actually much easier to ship and store propane in rural Alaska than it is to ship cryogenic fuels. A tank that has -260 F fuel requires significant monitoring and security precautions- no insurance company would underwrite a cryogenic fuel storage and transport plan without assurances that strict a safety and security plan was in place. In a village of just a hundred people that is hard to do as there is no economy of scale.
As far as your claim that ANGDA has some secret scheme to kill the FNG proposal... unless you can prove that- and you've offered ZERO proof of that- your assertion rises to the level of libel. ANGDA has been working on the propane plan since last year. Did you not attend any of ANGDA's public meetings?
Ok, when I read the title my first thought was: "It clears a room pretty quick too."
News miner!
"What the bloggers do not know is that in the mid-1970s when our carbon monoxide levels exceeded those in Los Angeles, "
---------
Non sense! Quote your source!
Also, tell me the locations of the wood stoves, which are invisible to my eye, that contribute 40%.
I want to ID them and I know where to look.
To date I seen ZERO wood stoves noted when I over look the Fairbanks bowel.
Yesterday, there was some smoke from someone burning cleared wood over by the U.
--------
From the burro page:
The 24 hour average of PM-2.5 is 12.2μg/m³ as of 4:00 PM. Yesterday's 24 hour average was 12.9μg/m³.
Bob Libel??
I'll back Ol' Bob up..
I'll back Bob up with gold..
All good ol' Bob's gotta do is gimme $250..
and in return I give him ownership title of treasure map where I know over a million $$ in gold is buried.
so.. go ahead and sue him for a million.
I'll even give you the shovel...
you want some beer to go along with that shovel too ???
http://images.realtravel.com/media/lg/18...
anybody wanna buy a propane powered trommel??? --- (;-P)
Alaska1- Propane and other compressed gases are hauled North now. Call Air Liquide or Carlile or Colville and see who their broker is. We brought up several trucks for a project I worked at Endicott last summer to provide building heat and hot water when the field was shut in.
An easy start would be to simply pipe natural gas to Fairbanks and generate electricity with it and sell it by way of our great system of interties. Here is what is stopping the real progress that our state needs: our own state government. The Port Authority was completely undermined by who? Our own state government.
Things can and will head our way when enough of us simply say: we want a gas line and we want it here in Alaska and we want it now. Let leadership figure how to make it happen. It can be liquified and shipped by rail from Fairbanks or by barge on the Yukon. A pipeline can be extended south later for now bringing it to the Fairbanks area is the key to the whole thing. For that matter the whole farce that it cannot be shipped in the TransAlaska Pipeline as far as the Fairbanks area has not been proved in a way I will believe it.
The way I see it: we voters were dumb enough to allow the borough to tackle the air pollution program, since the borough can't bring a natural pipeline to the interior. Only the State can. What the borough will do is impose restrictions on wood burning and wood stoves, and continue the IM program. In other words, all the borough can do is to tax us further.
As I have mentioned before, most of the worst emissions aren't from modern automobiles, but from boilers and furnaces that use heating fuel, and from coal-burning power plants. With the high price of heating fuel, a lot of home owners have no choice but to burn wood. Bringing natural gas to the interior of AK would reduce a great portion of the air pollutants, and we voters should have dropped that problem on the State's lap, not the borough's.
sosorry brings up yet again an interesting point about the AlyeskaPipe [TAPS]
TAPS is operating at less than half-capacity..
yes, it's possible to push batches of liquid-NGL's down to Fairbanks between pipe-pigs..
[this also works excellent for cleaning the big old pipe for inspection and repairs]
{my remote guess is: it's much more difficult to pass methane-CNG without reconfiguring the pump-stations again}
So, if we filled up 100miles of the 48" pipe with NGL's where could we store the surge of NGL's in Fairbanks??..
a small percentage could be immediately dumped into railcars..
but what to do with the remaining 90miles of propane/ethane/butane ??
Alyeska isn't gonna wanna stall the pipe-flow just to wait for us to figure out what to do next..
..if Doyon's Dry Hole in Nenana is proved DRY, I would like a look at the drill-logs to see if it would be a good place to store NGL's.
This might make it possible for us impoverished Alaskans to take local possession of 200,000 barrels our RoyaltyGas ASAP.
With this resource on tap it would justify installing a small polyolefin-polypellet plant in Fairbanks.
Installing a pig-receiver and a T-tap near Goldstream and building a 12" polypipe from there to Nenana might be project to consider.
DT- Can we have a definition of what you consider an NGL. To me it is a stable at atmosphere C5+ liquid. Basically "hot gasoline" anything less is an MI or miscible injectant which is hugely unstable at atmosphere. What is an NGL to you?
robir8 - You work in the industry, and I'm a retired [retiredead] outsider consultant wannabe..
so I'll try to cooperate..
I always thought an NGL was anything that's not methane, with helium being the oddball...
As you said, TAPS is loaded with pentanes C5+, and decanes [diesel]
If C2,C3, and C4 can be added as miscible injectants into TAPS, do you think a degasification facility in FBX would cost more than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick??
Liquid Ethane will pipeline nicely at 300psi all year in a SDR7 thickwall Fluro/Beta post-PEX HDPE PE7012 polypipe if it's installed underground in a slightly refrigerated 20F pipe..
[otherwise piped colder at - 20F, or in a mylar sleeved polypipe]
..on the other hand, methane is mostly hydrogen, and building "economy of scale" bigsteel long-distance pipelines for DensePhase CNG is cost prohibitive in todays new gas-paradigm...
This is why I've been daydreaming of making long-distance -270F Cryogenic LNG-methane Pipelines from mostly HDPE.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=of...
_______________________
http://www.pipelineandgastechnology.com/...
Distant thunder, you should change your name to blowhard. The same nonsense day in and day out from you. Most people don't even bother with your rants anymore. Take a look at the people who even bother with writing comments about gas. The same few. The majority of people in this town could care less about gas to Fairbanks. they have better things to do with their lives then sit around and wait for a gasline around the borough. We'll all probably be long dead and long before anything happens in this town.
Robir8- You've provided some good technical info. Could you clarify exactly how much of the capacity of the gas pipe to PS4 is being used? What is the maximum capacity of the 10"/8" pipe?
Thanks.
sisu --
and you get a big wet kiss from me too !!
__________________________________________
http://www.raincitystory.com/flash/scree...
__________________________________________
http://www.alyeska-pipe.com/Pipelinefact...
__________
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=...
...so the fuelgasline to PS4 is mothballed ???
hmmm...
I just closed my eyes and dreamed of building a big Arctic Tanker Aircraft that hauled propane in a big catamaran style airframe..
kinda like the old flying-boxcars Bob Thomas used to fly..
it would use four engines like this..
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:T....
The propane tanks could be made from rust free polypipe..
http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/...
It could fly in ground-effect at 200knots while carrying 100tons of propane.
Robir8- You've provided some good technical info. Could you clarify exactly how much of the capacity of the gas pipe to PS4 is being used? What is the maximum capacity of the 10"/8" pipe?
Thanks.
______________________
Great - Port Authority Board of Directors are receiving technical guidance from a FNM blog. That gives me a lot of confidence....
POO-
http://www.newsminer.com/user_agreement/...
"You agree that you will not knowingly give out any private information about others. Users who engage in the behavior of continually trying to guess other users’ private information may be banned and their account and contributions removed. If this type of action is thought to be happening on this Web site, we reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we may know about you, including your IP address(es)) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from this type of action."
There are 660,000 people living in Alaska- that you continually try to guess the identity of others shows both that you are incapable of following the rules the News-Miner has established, and also how clueless you really are about the odds of guessing who others are.
Grow up.
What I don't, hell, can't, understand is why others do not see what I see. Are they blind? What is it? Mental cataracts? Apathy beyond all imagination? Or is it simply that the oil industry owns the people that know how to get this done? What ever it is I know to the very cells of my being that I am not wrong. That what is happening with our natural gas future on its present course is an economic disaster for Alaskans and that once it is done there will be no going back and we the people of this state will be hosed with a capital H.
PAF- I really don't know much about the fuel gas line to Atigun other than it exists and was designed to supply fuel to power the turbines to run the pumps. The pumps have been changed out to electric. A guy could figure out potential though put I guess but it would take some reaserch and that would cut into my window of opportunity to drink. What I will do is see if CGF can provide propane and if they have a truck loading station which I vaguely remember talk of.
Some thoughts:
I don't trust anyone on this who doesn't have something to lose. Where's their skin in the game? When you have a bunch of establishment types seeking state spending in lieu of nonexistent private capital--watch out for your wallet!
Have them come out and say that your heating bill and electric bill for lower with this plan. Have them tell us that property taxes and such won't have to be cranked up to pay for this stuff. Don't allow them a way out by letting them say "the financial analysts say this and that" and "Harry says this and that".
Bob Thomas' great plans are a great way to grow light in the wallet. Our wallets will get lighter and somebody else's are sure to get heavier.
If private capital doesn't want to get in on the local energy picture alone and instead looks to state support, that is a clear sign that this talk of cheap energy is just that. My guess is that if the cheap energy turns true, you'll pay just under what you do now, but more likely you'll be underwhelmed at what the fuss was all about.
robir8- If CGF can load trucks...
what can we bring up to there on empty haulback?
Beer?
http://images.realtravel.com/media/lg/18...
The fuelgasline can pass 5000bbl/day of propane/ethane easily at 1200hp 50% line pressure capacity.
At this point the quality of the propane at CGF really doesn't matter much to a well trained truckdriver if he/she has the right equipment on the truck to analyze and adapt to the characteristics of the load.
Memo to all prospective propane haulers..
call AK-DOT for a copy of current state regs.
http://www.propanesafety.com/Pages/defau...
Simply e mail the Governor's office and request that the Port Authority undergo a legislative audit just like ANGDA is undergoing.
PAF
I am tired of someone who has recieved tax payer funding from FNSB residents trying push their agenda, which you would receive personnel financial gain, as an anonymous blogger.
I will "grow up" as soon as you publich your comments under your real name. You are the one that the FNM should be banning.
DT- Those guys were thirsty. The easiest things to haul north would probably be deisel (low sulfer) and gasoline, maybe methanol and glycol. They use a good bit of those fluids. Kinda like delivering pizza in a cadilac though.
robir8- thanks again for the insight. One friend had told me the pipe was being underutilized as TAPS throughput steadily declined- less fuel needed as less oil needed to be pumped. If the pumps are now all electric that means, in theory, that the pipe is not being utilized? The different plans we're read about to truck gas South could be more cost effective if 280 miles was shaved off the round trip by accepting gas delivery at PS4. This is not likely to ever happen, but more of an interesting 'what if?'
Also, its sad to know that gas is being sold by the state for about one dollar per MM/BTU only 300 miles North of Fairbanks.
Using the 8" fuelgasline plus an extra 2miles of polypipe south of PS4 will work to the advantage of Alyeska N-slope Security..
it will isolate Deadhorse and PS4 from all of the extra traffic..
until we get a polypipe built all the way to Fairbanks.
Truck Tracking Telemetry and VHF-relay will be important to consider too..
it will help the truckers to cooperate as a group, and will make AST happy too.
PAT/DT- I don't know that the pipeline is not being used to fuel the generators that run the pumps. I know that at PS1 they are on Prudhoe shore power. I seem to recall that the gen sets were going to be diesel which I thought was nuts. None the less the pipeline could carry alot more gas if needed. Remember when gas was found at Gubik in the 40's and 50's there was talk of a 10" line to Fairbanks. Well maybe someone should take DT seriously and see just what it takes to get an 8" polypipe to FBKS. I've built the stuff myself, like anything else a certain amount of technique is involved but the stuff is pretty tough. And fast. Maybe Chevron or Anandarko will give us some gas from White Hills. Nice dehydrated raw gas we'll strip it here. Look DT has been ranting poly pipe for the year and half I been here. Get someone to look into it. River crossings, permits the works. Get the Port Authortity or ADGDA to talk to him. Other than Heinz these are not oil and gas men. I know. I am. And I have never worked for and oil and gas company major or minor. But I drilled their wells. and took their seismic, and built their pipelines, and managed their work. For a fair salary I might add.
robir8 --
ANGDA and AGPA both got me telling them how to maximize the use of HDPE for moving hydrocarbons, for FREE !!
..next they'll be wanting me to tell them where all my gold claim hotspots are too, for FREE !!
I can no longer afford medical insurance, and I'm repairing a slow boat to China, so when I finally get there I can slave away in a precision stainless vacuum-induction foundry for a year to afford to get my eyes, teeth, and hernias fixed...
at least when I'm in China I can send you some first hand info on the polypipe extrusion machinery they make there under German license.
Alaska 1
"ANGDA seems to have the most effective near term plan to get energy relief to Fairbanks and our villages."
My take on this is that ANGDA has worked on plans to deliver propane that seems to make sense to me. We are probably not ever going to see a large pipe moving stranded natural gas from the North Slope to Valdez any time soon. So, the ANGDA propane project makes sense as an energy bridge to heat and light small communities across the state. Diesel is not going down anytime soon so we need an alternative. Propane will make more economic sense for us to displace expensive diesel in the near term while we wait for renewables, a grid connecting us to the Railbelt Energy Grid, or Naknek Geothermal to come on line.
Notice no one talks about the Minto Basin anymore. Wonder what happen or are they waiting to surprise everyone. If gas is there, why is anyone talking about trucking it. By the way, Bartos in his thank you note in the DNM, talked about the fact that without GVEA agreement to purchase gas the Port Authority could not float bonds. Exactly who all is invloved in this deal that the Port Authority is trying to make.
robir8- I have a wild hunch that if we installed a tiny 2" HDPE propane-pipe just long enough to stretch from the CGF out under the fence to a wide-spot in the road just big enough to stop and load one small propane truck at a time, then the rest of the plan will unfold one casual and quiet step at a time without any fuss or problems..
the proper people to provide assistance will quietly extend a hand if nobody expects any hassle or headache.
DT- I worked on CGF during contruction and worked several projects there since. I'm almost sure I remember them talking about selling propane if in nothing else than the local market. If you can find an overhead of CGF you will see at the extreme west end of the plant a bulk tank for storing propane. They use propane as a refrigerant to strip NGL's. Thats their makeup supply for a cold start. I go up in a little more than a week, I'm working a project at CCP a whole 1/4 mile away. Both plants are joined at the hip. If there's a loading station (betcha a map to your gold claims there is) I'll let ya know. The volumes they proccess are so great we are just little bugs buzzing around. I want that map. PS- There is no fence.
OK robir8, it's a deal.. I'll show you everything I know about Alaska Geology..
and how to find the fabled Pot-o-Gold at the end of the Rainbow too.
When we use TrenchlessTech tunneling the -270F Cryogenic LNG polypipe gasline from Deadhorse to Valdez I'll show you big deposits of alluvium with more than 1oz/ton of AU.
Hey folks, I'm working with a guy who's doing blogs on issues in the north. Maybe I can talk him into doing one on this topic. Have a look at it. It's at www.alaskaeconomicdevelopment.blogspot.c...
Have a look and see if something like this is what might help get us moving. We could put pictures on it and all kinds of things. And it's free, except for the time you put into it.
I'd like the blog previously mentioned to be used for topics such as natural gas and such. Oh, and I opened it up to anonymous comments. Sorry, I'm new at this game.
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