Blog: Dermot Cole
Fired up over propane
Published Friday, October 16, 2009
•A second Alaska "gas authority" has offered a competing plan to truck fuel made from natural gas down the Dalton Highway, in this case propane.
A few weeks ago the Alaska Gasline Port Authority announced that it plans to buy Fairbanks Natural Gas and develop the infrastructure needed to truck natural gas to Fairbanks and supply one of the GVEA power plants at North Pole.
That project is proceeding and the response from the financial analysts so far has been positive, said Borough Mayor Jim Whitaker, a member of the port authority board.
Under the port authority plan, FNG would also start selling propane and provide transportation fuel, mainly to trucks.
The total cost would be about $250 million and it would be financed by revenue bonds.
A news report in the Alaska Journal of Commerce by Tim Bradner Thursday detailed plans by the Alaska Natural Gas Development Authority, a state corporation, to ship propane by truck to Fairbanks.
The ANGDA plan would also mean shipping propane by barge to Western Alaska villages and possibly supplying GVEA, Bradner's story said.
The port authority plan also is based on GVEA as an "anchor" customer that would buy enough fuel to make the venture economic.
Not too long ago ANGDA was talking about building a pipeline from Cook Inlet to Delta, with a small spur line to North Pole to supply GVEA. The main point of that project was to use the pipeline to Delta as storage for natural gas from Cook Inlet. It would be filled in the summer and drawn down during the winter when Anchorage faces a supply crunch.
Whitaker, one of the members of the port authority, which is made up of the municipal governments of Valdez, Fairbanks and the North Slope, said the new ANGDA plan is not in the best interest of Interior Alaska.
He said ANGDA has been "Anchorage-centric" in its approach and the plan to build a pipeline to Delta for use as gas storage for Southcentral helped prompt the port authority to investigate the situation and offer its proposal.
Whitaker said he doesn't believe it threatens the port authority project, however. The ANGDA plan would have to go back to the Legislature for approval, while the fate of the port authority project will be determined by whether financing in the form of revenue bonds can be arranged.
He said he thinks that the port authority plan would provide cheaper fuel to GVEA and to the other consumers of natural gas in Fairbanks.
The more I think about this the more it seems that the governor could play a role in getting these two groups into the same room so that they start working together.
What does ANGDA stand for? Where are they based?
Whitaker, one of the members of the port authority, which is made up of the municipal governments of Valdez, Fairbanks and the North Slope, said the new ANGDA plan is not in the best interest of Interior Alaska.
-----------------------------
Is he saying this as a Port Authority official or as mayor of the FNSB, or can he even seperate the two?
I urge Tammy Wilson, after becoming mayor, to investigate the relationship between FNSB and the Port Authority.
Something smells.
Per the Port Authority's "voter mandate" it is to supply the
three Boroughs & Alaska access to natural gas. Therefore for the "best interest" of all concerned it should work with ANDGA to make it's stated objective come to pass. So principals before personalities should be the "order of the day". Get natural gas to Alaska at all costs & the Port Authority should forget who they have to work with to get it accomplished!
me thinketh, AGIA chained the moose up backwards to the cart..
this left ANGDA & AGPA in a difficult position.
http://www.alaskajournal.com/stories/101...
The anticipated production of 5,000 to 10,000 barrels per day of propane matches nicely with the capacity of "Distant Thunder's silly little noodle pipe for propane"...
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
..if half of the propane produced is trucked, and ocean-shipped from Deadhorse.
This still leaves us in a situation where if 25% of the produced propane is trucked, we'll still have nearly 30 trips per day of tandem-axle tanker trucks hauling propane down the haulroad...
I think the cost of the tanker truck fleet insurance might be more than what it would cost to buy a basic HDPE-polypipe gasline kit.
Anybody got some really good insurance connections??
Whitiker has lost ALL credibility.
I would not believe a word he says ir trust anything he does.
For several reasons propane is an inferior heating fuel compared to natural gas.
Propane would be a poor choice and the $250 million financed by revenue bonds would be a poor investment.
If you think 10,000bpd of propane is a lot of gas..
the total area of Alaska Territory [land and fishing grounds] is 13million square miles..
this equals 1 gallon per day of propane for every 30 square miles of Alaska's propane market.
JB_in_AK--- Please state the "several reasons" and your logic. Volume for volume methane has about half the btu that propane has; that's why propane is bottled for sale and methane is not.
Sabrina- ANGDA stands for the "Alaska Natural Gas Development Authority". ANGDA was established by the 2002 statewide voter mandate where 138,000 Alaskans voted "Yes".
Bradner writes: "After processing, the propane could be trucked down the Dalton Highway and delivered to Fairbanks for about $1.16 per gallon, according to estimates prepared for the gas authority by Scott Goldsmith, an economist with the University of Alaska's Institute of Social and Economic Research. The equivalent cost for fuel oil would be $2.13 per gallon at a $60 per barrel oil price, Goldsmith's study indicated."
Propane burns super cleanly, can be easily stored, and a natural gas boiler or furnace can be easily retrofitted to burn propane (usually) with a simple adapter plate/orifice.
ANGDA deserves a lot of credit for their work to try and bring propane to Alaskans. Rural Alaska and the Interior could be supplied with affordable, clean energy if this plan comes together. Propane can be easily stored and transported. It does not require a piping distribution system so those who are not on a gas grid will benefit.
The big problem Alaskans have is that ANGDA does not (yet) have bonding authority to implement this plan. Meanwhile the State of Alaska is transferring hundreds of millions to ExxonMobil through TranCanada for pipeline studies while Alaskans shiver in dirty air without affordable energy.
Port Authority = Whitaker + Luke Hopkins + others. BE CAREFUL what and WHO you vote for people. Listen to the radio, talk with your neighbors and investigate for yourself who these people are. Do you want another Whitaker in office?
Personally, I wouldn't trust the Port Authority at all! What have they accomplished and how much money have they burned through already?
Just what will they "spend" the 250 million on? If this is such a good idea why has no company started doing it? If there is money to be make doing it then it will get done , if not they will ask the taxpayers to pay for it, end of story...
Jim Whitaker is looking for another job where he can do nothing/ know nothing and get paid for it. Him and Jim FDA should be asked to leave this country, I will supply the plane tickets, one way only...
"Propane can be easily stored and transported."
...this is precisely why ANGDA/AGPA does not need to wait for Bonding Authority.
Propane is better than FunnyMoney dismal-dollars on the global market.
A few small shiploads of LPG-propane can be traded/bartered for a complete gas pipeline kit [made by Mattel & Hasbro Toys]
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
So, where do we get a LPG-tankership??
http://www.ngl.co.jp/e_ship15.html
and how much will it cost ??
http://www.shiplink.info/contents1.asp?r...
$2million is less than the amount lost gambling on poker tables in Fairbanks in a month.
.....it's been Loozerville since I left town in a hail of bullets a long time ago.
Propane is as good as Gold..
it's more fungible than dollars..
and you have your hands on $10billion worth of propane right now!!
...some people you have to dunk in the water trough until their feet quit kicking and the bubbles quit.
By the time you guys finally getta Round2it..
Gazprom will have a 5bcfd cryogenic LNG-methane 5gigawatt superconductor power tunnel running from Deadhorse to Chukotka.
Trucks are not the way to move massive amounts of any fuels
for any large distances. Pipeline is whats needed, smaller
one for local use. Dermont get off your duff and find out
for us exactually what is happening with Doyon, before we
jump in bed with this trucker idea.
Unlike natural gas, propane is heavier than air (1.5 times as dense). In its raw state, propane sinks and pools at the lowest elevation and can flow long distances to a source of ignition and flash back. Liquid propane will flash to a vapor at atmospheric pressure and appears white due to moisture condensing from the air.
The National Transportation Safety Board has lots of information about propane.
The link below is a pipeline incident report in a more favorable warm climate that never gets below freezing.
The incident involves San Juan Gas Company, ENRON Corp on November 21, 1996
http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/1997/PAR970...
Wouldnt you have to pre-heat propane occasionally to use it year round up here? If so....I wonder what would that add to the true cost to use.
Divide and conquer. By the way the Port Authoriy mandate was to build a gas pipeline from the North Slope to Valdez. Where in the voter mandate does it say that the Port Authority has a mandate to go into the trucking business and to float millions in bonds to do so? Time for the State to step up to the plate and do a complete audit of the Port Authority, just like ANGDA is undergoing.
I presently have high-priced NG, while most of the rest of you have high-price, and going higher fuel oil. What in the h**l does it take to get something done in Alaska? We need to do something before Pelosi gets up here and takes us back to the dark ages. I have a feeling that after the state buckels on the Big-Oil Tax Plan we will see a lot of construction up here, but not before. Just a hunch! Also, invest your money with which ever Oil Company JayBird does (or is that invest more money with which ever Oil Company)!
"Wouldnt you have to pre-heat propane occasionally to use it year round up here?"
===
ANGDA is already very hip to formulating and distributing Arctic-Mix 90%propane-10%ethane....
this stuff will make great vehicle fuel down to -90F
Ethane is cheaper than propane, so the added cost is just the expense of metering the mix just right.
I forgot to say in my last post - I bet that OUTSIDE wood and coal boilers will be coming up soon AGAIN. I really do not think the oil, or gas companies, want any competition in this part of the woods. Besides, the state needs the wood for forest fires in the summer!!!
What a waste of time. These people need to feed some starving children or something more useful.
http://www.propanesafety.com/Pages/defau...
Looks like JB_in_AK has found himself a bright new career teaching night courses in propane safety at UAF.
People already use propane here in Fairbanks and the bush all year round for a variety of uses.
Also, follow the money and THINK before you vote for borough mayor. This vote really does matter. Dont let lethargy stop you from being smartly proactive.
PAF, et al: The voter mandate was to build a pipeline to Valdez, PIPELINE, NOT A TRUCK LINE! SO WHEN DID THE MANDATE CHANGE?
Getting low-cost propane to Interior villages would be great, but I would like to know how it is economical to truck it to Fairbanks. Is it economical compared to oil alone, or to a pipeline that doesn't exist? Will winter heating bills actually go down?
Without massive improvements to the Dalton Highway, I wonder if this gas trucking plan to Fairbanks can work in the long-term. That is a long way to truck flammable gas on a bad road. Are they going to ship natural gas down by truck, too? What's our price going to be in Fairbanks?
If it is not going to lower costs for electricity and heating in Fairbanks, then this is all talk.
Beware: When private capital doesn't invest in something like this and it takes a government entity to do so, it's usually a bad deal when all the true and hidden costs are revealed. Does Jim Whitaker have any skin in the game? Do any of the other politicos on these boards have any? I don't trust anyone, in a situation like this, who doesn't have anything to lose.
Experiment:
Take a 5gallon bottle of propane out to a treeless area in deep snow..
far away from anything that can be damaged..
hook a ball-valve to the OPD-valve on the tank and rig it so you can open the gas-flow with a fishing-line..
rig up a remote electric igniter from a battery or use a flare-pistol..
On a day when there is no wind, open the valve from a safe distance and spill the propane gas into the deep snow..
Then ignite the gas-spill and see what happens..
you might be surprised at the result.
I guess everyone can debate and procrastinate... but the propane plant on the Slope is the best idea in a long time! Alaskans cannot afford to deal with $150 crude again, and the LNG projects are completely unfeasible. The plant wouldn't start out at 10,000 bbls/d, but find an anchor user or two to build upon. Look up the heating value of propane, is is a perfect Alaskan fuel... blend with ethane for cold weather/residential use... blend with butane for industrial use. Golden Valley Electric's turbines would love a 3500+ Btu/gal mixture to burn after minimal conversion costs. If the project could get off the ground, eventually a small diameter liquid pipeline could be built to Fairbanks to act as distribution hub, keeping many of those trucks off of the haul road.
Don't get bamboozled by the BS project that Fairbanks Natural Gas is proposing, it works much better as a "bolt-on" to ANGDA's propane plant in several years.
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Mayor Jim Whitaker was a speaker at 2008 Democratic National Convention
If you watch the actual video Mayor Jim Whitaker pronouced Obama as “ Obamas”
And never mentioned ” Propanes” as a fuel.
Jim Whitaker’s speech:
Tuesday, August 26, 2008 at 06:35 PM Good evening! We are Americans first, not Democrats, not Republicans. I stand before you as a father, a husband, a mayor, an Alaskan, a registered Republican
—
but first and foremost, as an American. I am not here to speak against Senator McCain. I am here to endorse Barack Obama for the presidency of the United States of America because I am an American first. And as Americans, each of us has one precious vote
—
and a responsibility to cast that vote for the c
andidate we believe will best meet America’s challenges and seize America’s
opportunities. I will be casting mine for the candidate who possesses a keen intellect, a pragmatic idealism and a resulting wisdom which is sorely needed in America today. I will be casting my vote for Barack Obama. We, Americans, must have a foreign policy based on strength, logic and sound judgment. We will get that from Barack Obama.
We, Americans, must have economic policies based on what’s best for hard working
families
—
not lobbyists, or special interests, or just the very wealthy
—
but for the vast majority of our people. We will get that from Barack Obama. We, Americans, must have an energy policy which leads us to energy independence and stability. We will get that from Barack Obama. This cornerstone of our economic security and national security cannot be left to shifts in
the market or the whims of hostile dictators. America’s energy policy must be based on
self reliance and the resources we have right here at home: from domestically produced natural gas, including liquefied natural gas from Alaska, to biomass, wind and solar
—
renewable, alternative energy sources, American energy sources.
In the end, I’m here tonight because I know the change we need requires a leader wi
th a steely resolve, a powerful vision for our future and a passion for helping working people.
The man you will nominate tomorrow is that leader−America’s next great president,
Barack Obama.
See........ NO.........Propanes.
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"I want to know about what she did (or didn't do) with Love Inc. Why did it get destroyed?"
For the record, Love INC was not, has not been destroyed. INfact, they have new building across from the Food Bank and are still meeting the needs of the community through a network of dozens of churches.
Tammie was on the board of Love INC at one time.
What "information" has you reconsidering? PLease share with the rest of us.
Is it wrong to live in a junkyard? Personally, I woudlmuch rather buy a part from say Interior Salvage than from Schucks as Interior Salvage is locally owned, operated and even some of the family live there. I see nothing wrong there. I dont need a person tha lives in a big house or wears fancy cothes to represent me. I need someone that works for "we the people" not for big oil, big gas or anyone other than you and me and our best interests. Folowo the money and be very careful with this vote.
NGL_Guy...
"eventually a small diameter liquid pipeline could be built to Fairbanks to act as distribution hub, keeping many of those trucks off of the haul road."
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
Thanks, NGL_Guy !!
I'll take that as an endorsement.
...even if we built the first 12mile section of HDPE-polypipe gasline over Atigun [cost $3mil], it would pay for itself in less than a year.
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
--------
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
.......flash/rumble
DT-
I have been reading your comments for over a year now. Why havent your ideas been forwarded by yourself or others? It would seem as though it is a no brainer! What are the top 5 stumbling blocks?
Alaska1-
What are the top 5 stumbling blocks???
Well..
it would be too easy for me to project blame on others..
..greed, incompetence, corruption, insanity, brainwashed.
All the typical snarky comments foreigners mumble behind American tourists backs.
Standing here on my soapbox I'll confess..
if I sold my land and became a homeless entrepreneur in the great American tradition like Wally Hickel,
and returned to Alaska [likely under withering gunfire, like the day I left Alaska]...
I'd drive back up the Alcan in November in a 3000gallon single-axel propane-bobtail.
I'd save my pennies and bootstrap it all myself.
For years I kept running into the bar screaming "There's gold in them thar hills!!".. and was roundly ignored.
....then 3years ago I farted in church and mumbled "propane ain't methane", and 2years ago ANGDA began to take notice.
In 1974 I tried to get folks in Fairbanks to get behind the idea of extending the planned fuelgasline past the Brooks and on down to Fairbanks.. and I also began to talk about pipelining NGL's in polypipe..
...partly because of my outspoken ideas [and a bunch of other weird stuff happening in town at the time], I had my face rearranged and three ribs broken by 7guys wearing cowboy boots.
.......Living Well is the Best Revenge
DT-
Hmm, so you got the crap kicked out of you and you left? Well, so what is a thirtysomething who has lived here all his life to do? It woudl sure seem that some entreprenureal type folks woudl band together and make this happen. I guess I just dont get it. If Bernie Karl can get a thermal-electric whosawhatsit off and running and keep Chena Hot Springs in the 21st century Fairbanks should be innovative enough to come up with sustainable, efficient, affordable energy for our cars, homes, and power plants. Something just sint adding up, and I am very much beginning to question why I am not pulling up my OWN bootstraps and doing "something"
Alaska1-
I sent Bernie an email the other day with an inquiry about possibly buying one of his 300kw geothermal whosawhatits..
so far, no reply..
does anybody know if he's on vacation this week?
I do have skype on my computer, and I can call anybody in Alaska toll free..
but I have been restrained from making a bunch of calls because I usually begin ranting and raving and frothing at the mouth like a madman.
What's a thirtysomething Squarebanksan to do about all this ??
If you can squeeze together $25k you could fly south and go buy a dual-fuel propane powered bobtail truck for around $12k.. there's a shortage of these things in Alaska.
If you read all of my previous posts you can get some solid clues on how to make some trades and claims in the Wiseman area near Sukakpak on the Koyukuk.
User profile: DistantThunder
Joined: Jan. 31, 2008
Comments posted: 1430 (view all)
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Ok DT.. you're on.
I will be reading them all. I just happen to be young, dumb, and aggresive enough to see what I cant kick up.
Maybe, just maybe, a boy with a dream can do something.
Sure seems like a lot of "pipe & truck" dreams going on around here lately! The truth is, I'm afraid they are nothing but dreams. Private capital isn't going to "buy" into and invest in these "dreams"[ be they pipe or truck]. Like with most things in life; time will tell.
The smartest thing the State of Alaska could do at this point is convert all state vehicles to natural gas. Use lots of rhetoric about how "green" it is (maybe we could hire Van Jones to make up stuff - whatever ti takes). Other states might follow (heck Obama would proabably sign a new stimulus bill just for it). Once there is a big market of natural gas state vehicles it would create an infrastructure (natural gas stations) that would spur commercial conversion to natural gas vehicles.
All of this would eventually drive the price of natural gas up and the pipeline becomes viable.
All for a few hundred million to convert the state vehicles.
Its worth a shot.
Power_Of_The_O, I dunno, it seems that at least in this state it has been the republicans who have been brown nosing the big oil companies so much, who have never had Alaskans best interests in mind when it comes to affordable energy. Frank Murkowski in particular comes to mind as well as Palin. Then toss in the Corrupt Bastards Club (an exclusive republican club) and it is no wonder we don't have any plan on the horizon. Remember that the Gov for the past 10 years and the legislative majority for longer then I can remember has been Republican. During their watch oil companies on the slope made huge amounts of money which they seem to refuse to reinvest any of while Alaskans got the short end of the stick.
Hank Hill approves.
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Tuna - nice. Maybe we could hire Hank Hill (he's not Obama's natural gas czar is he?)
Better hope they don't get you for copy write violations of good old Hank Hill. But your art is a heck of a lot better than the ramblings of those who just keep on using this as a means to promote themselves or their projects.
our elected officials
should look in to price gouging
with propane sales in fbks
propane was .79 cts a gal on ny exchange last week
3,39 $ delivered fbks last week ..
all propane co's in town ..same price
but politicians could care less about us working stiffs ..
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